Syndra Quality of Life/Useability changes

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I Am Tolan

Senior Member

10-17-2012

woah


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Augustine

Senior Member

10-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
If we're in a position where we want to add straight power to Syndra the passive would be a strong candidate for it, we're aware it's not offering the sort of satisfaction desired to many players.

As far as a noticeable extra effect on Dark Spheres without cutting into their damage goes that's a pretty similar answer really. If we wanted to straight out buff then we definitely could, but if we wanted to keep Dark Sphere's power the same we would have to reduce something else. If we did add a secondary effect I'd also want it to be something that added extra gameplay, which stat buffs just for casting generally don't - you already want to be spamming Q whenever mana permits so your decisions wouldn't change unless your choice of location had the potential to change. Vision would certainly do that for example, whether giving her vision on the Q instead of the W/E or as well would be healthy for her game balance though is something I'm hesitant on and would definitely have to chat to Live about a bunch/test thoroughly.
Thanks for the reply Meddler.
I can see the logic in your response and actually agree.

We'll leave Syndra's balance to you guys, I'm sure you'll be able to make her the carry we all want her to be


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

10-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
- Now executes throw commands given during the grab time immediately once the grab's over, rather than blocking throw commands until the grab's finished
Was it a conscious decision to make it work the former way in order to increase skillcap? Or was it perceived that it would be the most usable that way?


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Astropanda

Senior Member

10-17-2012

Oh noes Syndra might become more popular now =0 At least she'll be more fun to play I really like her.


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LtFinnDiesel

Junior Member

10-17-2012

@Meddler

Prior to worlds you posted in a discussion on varus and said you would come back to the discussion about him in a bit because you were busy. Anyway to get some of those thoughts from you? I just feel like right now varus is lacking a little bit. Personally i think upping his AA to would help. Most immobile AD's have increased range to compensate for that and im not sure 575 is enough.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-17-2012
11 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaria View Post
It really sounds like you guys are just all over the place with syndra like really all over the place

you have her move speed on the sluggish side but say it's because she can move while casting 2 of her spells but the two spells she can cast while moving are a ground targeted skill with a really long windup that is easy as sin to dodge and a spell that requires ammo that your either putting behind you in a position you cant pick up or a minion(why are you kiting into the enemy base again?) which also has a really long windup and is also extremely easy to dodge
Most people can close on her poor speed while dodging spheres no problem and then shes forced to scatter and then they gap close and she's done

You say you want her to be mana restricted but rewarded for building mana but people don't even build anivia for mana very much outside of a chalice which is pretty darn good on any caster nowadays. Or maybe an RoA but usually not both
She doesn't scale with mana anywhere and it doesn't really help her damage output any outside of her running out of mana at a much faster rate than other casters that can do more with less.
It just doesn't make sense

You have all these odd restrictions on her and awkward windups and sluggish abilities while also having high costs and high cooldowns while she doesn't even really do all that much damage to compensate and her ranges aren't all that great either

Usually not one for comparing kits but look at her Q and W compared to cassie's Q and W. They could not be more alike in function but cassie's versions are better in every single imaginable way.
On top of that cassie also has a cone CC skill that is also WAY better than syndra's cone cc skill and cassie's big single target damage skill very likely does more damage in a similar time period and is easier to use and faster and more reliable

She just doesn't make sense, Her main skill is of the style that needs to be spammy to be functional. tiny delayed aoe's are by nature going to miss a lot more than they hit if people are paying attention but it's designed more like a big nuke you have to use sparingly only when your sure of a hit and doesn't even do that much damage
Her slow takes so long to launch that if your chasing someone they'll be gone before it gets there for sure and if your trying to get away its just way too slow to facilitate

the knock back is a decent spell but the cooldown is quite long and it's pretty darn hard to hit. Even spells like annie's incinerate is a far more reliable aoe stun(which is also pretty much just as good as a knockback in most cases that a knockback would be useful)

her ult is cool and all but it's range doesn't mesh with her other skills at all and takes so much work to do slightly more single target damage than way better aoe ults that have awesome secondary effects
really the only thing you can really do with it now is blow it on initiator and scatter it hoping for a couple stuns but now you lost your disengage and big nuke

and her passive is just bleck...
It brings her skills up to where they should have been the whole time. Those secondary effects need to just be rolled into her skills as is and take a page from kha'zix book and give her actual new effects at max, including her ult

Just have to pick a direction and go with it
make her like a mortar able to attack at exceptional range but slow and easy to avoid(they look like cannonballs anyways)
make her like an awkward to use but highly rewarding mid range mage(she's already awkward just needs the reward for it)
make her more like cassiopeia with a spammable Q and quicker to connect W while the E and R ad passive define her(people love cassie and karth's style, no harm putting in a new contender)
Make her like a pet mage where the spheres act like little gravity wells(it's a little strange they're harmless atm)
but right now she pretty much just has all the negative sides and none of the specialties It's like she's difficult just for the sake of being difficult

edit: just something else I think worth noting. Karma's skills do more damage, are easier to land, and she brings a ton more utility to a fight than syndra. Karma is considered unviable because she doesn't bring enough damage and utility to a fight while being too complicated to play
To address your points in order:

1. Yes, Syndra's movement speed is on the slow side at 305, our mages are generally 305 or 310 however and she has two spells that can be cast while moving, one of which slows, and a knockback that can potentially stun. I'd argue her effective mobility is actually very high for a champion that doesn't have a dash/blink. The timer on the Q is 0.6s, which is pretty average for similar spells but also comes with the advantage that it doesn't have a cast time to act as an addition telegraph to an enemy player. And while the W does indeed require ammo to use it's pretty rare that you won't want to be generating ammo for it yourself or around an appropriate minion.

2. Her mana costs may still be too high certainly, I'm not sure on that yet. We want to take a gradual approach to adding power to her though, starting with the most appropriate buffs/changes first though so have opted not to cut mana costs again when it's unclear whether that's the best fix. I certainly wouldn't expect her to be building old style Ryze like (Tear + Banshees + Frozen Heart) but I do believe that having mana that's a genuine resource that needs to be managed is appropriate for mages from both a power and a game health perspective.

3. Responsiveness of abilities I agree on, hence these changes. With the exception of her ult though her ranges are pretty decent, the stun especially, and her damage, especially a full combo at level 6, can be very high. It does require some setup granted, and perhaps we don't have the risk versus reward balance right still, but I don't believe that's an issue with the raw spell damage figures.

4. Yes, her spells require set up, are less reliable than click to hit spells and have counterplay to them. As above, some of this may be a problem of risk versus reward balance still, I don't feel it's an inherent issue with spells with those characteristics though (else a slow skillshot like Dark Binding wouldn't be effective or fun and that's certainly not the case). Her kit's deliberately harder to execute than many but is intended to offer a number of strengths that, when leveraged properly, offset that (in particular damage while kiting/chasing, a long range multi target line stun and an ult with very high damage to a single target with proper setup/positioning, giving a playstyle that should reward careful positioning on the edges of a fight unless it's an appropriate time for an all in).

And, on a general note, while we may not necessarily get her into a perfect place with these changes we'll certainly keep at it if not.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-17-2012
12 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Reaper View Post
Can you considered making the Orb Speed and Scatter the weak the same speed?

Currently, Orbs travel about twice as fast as Scatter the weak.
Do you mean the wave from Scatter the Weak or enemies knocked back by it? The wave from memory is actually a bit faster than the orbs (though the particle hides some of that), the enemies knocked back are from memory slower though, and it might be worth speeding that up a bit, will give that a look.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-17-2012
13 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkautumn View Post
Meddler my friend!

I want to apply for a job at Riot, but I am Australian and I wonder what your opinion is on life in America compared to NZ?

Is it good? Bearable? Happy? People good?
I've found it really good. Riot's a great workplace in terms of people and culture and Santa Monica's a nice area. Highly recommend applying if you think Gaming's an industry you want to work in and there's an appropriate position advertised.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-17-2012
14 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fomorian27 View Post
Was it a conscious decision to make it work the former way in order to increase skillcap? Or was it perceived that it would be the most usable that way?
That one was just a plain and simple oversight on my part actually, I wasn't aware of a couple of tricks in configuring how commands are treated for such multi-activation spells until Xypherous pointed me in a particular direction a couple of weeks back, apologies for that.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-17-2012
15 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtFinnDiesel View Post
@Meddler

Prior to worlds you posted in a discussion on varus and said you would come back to the discussion about him in a bit because you were busy. Anyway to get some of those thoughts from you? I just feel like right now varus is lacking a little bit. Personally i think upping his AA to would help. Most immobile AD's have increased range to compensate for that and im not sure 575 is enough.
Hoping to get to those discussions this week, possibly not until the weekend though. As far as power buffs go though I think some of it's just that we've had a few ranged AD carries be a bit dominant recently (Ezreal especially) which is something we're working on.