Best Katarina Build?

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ur little sister

Senior Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
The old Kat struggled in the early levels pretty badly as well so I don't see much different there. Her harrass, as far as I'm concerned, is far superior now after a few levels. The Q- E-W combo hits like a truck and results in a damage reduction and speed buff at the same time. She wins a lot of trades as a result, especially against skill shot champions.
The difference is that she auto pushes her lane from lvl 1 now, allowing her to get denied hard from lvl 1 on. In almost every single game I've played against a Kat so far, she did not buy an item on first back, and I got a big cs lead on her. As for the whole harass thing: I haven't lost many trades against Kats yet in mid lane (though I see that at my measly 1600 ELO, many players don't know how to trade well yet. For example, many players only throw spells, rather than maximizing the damage with auto-attacks.) Though when playing Kat, I've noticed I can't win trades if my opponent trades smartly.

Also, trading isn't everything: even if Kat wins the trade by a small margin, she wasted her spells and can't farm that wave anymore (cause she can't win trades without spell cooldowns). This is why ranged champions can actually benefit from trading with Kat, even if they "lost" the trade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
Roamers are always underfarmed. A jungle is usually underfarmed. If you can pull it off and manage a surprise the kill and/or assist is worth it. If you've only seen it work once, you probably haven't seen Kat played enough.
Roamers aren't always underfarmed... Most people who roam succesfully do so after they cleared an entire wave and are free to walk. As far as the matchups I've played go, a roaming Kat has the choice to go roaming at level 2/3, or roam with about 20-30 cs. Most of them do the latter, because they realize they can't farm in lane anyway. The only succesful new Kat I saw roaming roamed at lvl 2 and got double kills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanerian
Does no one prioritize W over Q?

Been having good success with that, makes pushing lanes a breeze.
Lots of Kats do. They get stomped even harder cause they can't counterharass at all anymore. Maxing W over Q means you get harassed for free with little to no retaliation. Though it's a great strategy if your laning opponent chooses to prioritize farming over harassing you. However, if your laning opponent makes that choice, you should carry your game almost no matter what.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amoc

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
The difference is that she auto pushes her lane from lvl 1 now, allowing her to get denied hard from lvl 1 on. In almost every single game I've played against a Kat so far, she did not buy an item on first back, and I got a big cs lead on her.
That's pretty impressive because the first item back is maybe a Kage's or something and doesn't cost a ton...

Kat doesn't push her lane as hard as you make it seem either. BB doesn't cause enormous amounts of damage, especially early game. Even if she does push her lane, it's mid and it can't go that far until the tower starts stealing cs from your opponent. Shunpo and wards also work wonders for avoiding ganks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
As for the whole harass thing: I haven't lost many trades against Kats yet in mid lane (though I see that at my measly 1600 ELO, many players don't know how to trade well yet. For example, many players only throw spells, rather than maximizing the damage with auto-attacks.) Though when playing Kat, I've noticed I can't win trades if my opponent trades smartly.
What champion do you play mid with? There are admittedly some bad matchups for Kat, but those are generally champs with better sustain and easy to land CC. Most of the skillshot dependant ones get pooped on now even worse than they used to before her changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
Also, trading isn't everything: even if Kat wins the trade by a small margin, she wasted her spells and can't farm that wave anymore (cause she can't win trades without spell cooldowns). This is why ranged champions can actually benefit from trading with Kat, even if they "lost" the trade.
Kat chooses when and how the exchange will take place. If she lands a BB and the opponent is in range then that opponent instantly eats a Shunpo, mark trigger, SS and auto attack, and then Kat's rapidly moving away, often amongst minions, with a speed and damage reduction buff. Unless you're playing a point and click champ like Ryze or something, who can brainlessly snare/cc her and get their own combo out after that, she's likely to win the trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
Roamers aren't always underfarmed... Most people who roam succesfully do so after they cleared an entire wave and are free to walk.
Your points are conflicting. You're saying that Kat pushes the lane too hard, but she's also underfarmed? How does that work? If you keep sending her back to base, the lane won't be pushed. If she's roaming because she pushed her lane too hard, then she should have CS.

Regardless, she's excellent at farming under her tower, so even if she wants to play super passive at the beginning she can still CS.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ur little sister

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
That's pretty impressive because the first item back is maybe a Kage's or something and doesn't cost a ton...
Kage's? I meant I send them back before they farm enough to get an amp tome generally. Kage is a 12-15 minute mark item ish for them in most of my matches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
Kat doesn't push her lane as hard as you make it seem either. BB doesn't cause enormous amounts of damage, especially early game. Even if she does push her lane, it's mid and it can't go that far until the tower starts stealing cs from your opponent. Shunpo and wards also work wonders for avoiding ganks.
Don't let the tower steal cs. Freeze in time. Takes getting used to, but most of the champions I use can do it pretty well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
What champion do you play mid with? There are admittedly some bad matchups for Kat, but those are generally champs with better sustain and easy to land CC. Most of the skillshot dependant ones get pooped on now even worse than they used to before her changes.
Brand, Annie, Leblanc, Akali, Kennen, Vladimir and Swain would be the ones I don't think it's possible losing to Kat with. I haven't lost with Morgana or Ryze either against her, but that's just silly. That has to be those Kats, cause if Kat can't handle those guys anymore there's just something REALLY wrong. I have some other mids that I am more hesitant to pick (Gragas and Karthus). And I'm in eternal doubt about Veigar. I'd have to play that matchup more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
Kat chooses when and how the exchange will take place. If she lands a BB and the opponent is in range then that opponent instantly eats a Shunpo, mark trigger, SS and auto attack, and then Kat's rapidly moving away, often amongst minions, with a speed and damage reduction buff. Unless you're playing a point and click champ like Ryze or something, who can brainlessly snare/cc her and get their own combo out after that, she's likely to win the trade.
Bold part = derpy opponent.
Almost all champions have point&click stuff. Also, the MS buff is only 1 second and she has to start from behind you. She's hittable with skillshots after the MS buff ends if they're long ranged. Though ideally, you would take point&click skills. But almost all champions have those + ranged auto-attacks. I haven't lost trades yet with her :/.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
Your points are conflicting. You're saying that Kat pushes the lane too hard, but she's also underfarmed? How does that work? If you keep sending her back to base, the lane won't be pushed. If she's roaming because she pushed her lane too hard, then she should have CS.
She uses her Q ---> hits minions (either to harass me or to lasthit 1 minion) --> wave pushes to my turret, and will keep doing so for a pretty long time. It also pushes relatively slowly, and I have a lot of control over where it stops. If she uses anything else than Q to farm a minion, I'll try to make sure she either has to use a pot or base. And the thought process behind the roaming is generally "I can't get anything out of this lane anyway, it's lost. Better try to get back by picking up 1 or 2 kills in a sidelane."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoc View Post
Regardless, she's excellent at farming under her tower, so even if she wants to play super passive at the beginning she can still CS.
Wave never hits her tower. I know she's amazing at farming when her opponent gives her the opportunity to use her W for farming.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PracticalPotato

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-11-2012

These walls of text...
I get:
Sorc Boots
Kage's (can skip)
Hextech Revolver
DFG
Hextech Gunblade

then whatever. I don't recommend getting a Rylais. It doesn't add much to survivability when you're in the middle of 3 champs


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ticking Death

Senior Member

10-14-2012

Zhonya's is wasted on her. Why? Her ult is channeled, and channeled abilities are canceled by its active. The active also means that the item costs more. Between Zhonya's and Rabadon's, the former has a gold/AP cost of 31. Rabadon's (with its passive included) has a 19.78 gold per AP cost. For Zhonya's, even if we split the recipe items up, divided the recipe cost equally between the items and subtracted the armor cost, Rabadon's is STILL more cost efficient. For Zhonya's:

Total Cost: 3100g
Recipe Cost: 800g
Chain Vest + 0.5*Recipe Cost: 700+400= 1100g
AP only cost: 2000g
Gold per AP: 2000g/100AP = 20

The armor is nice for defense, but a good Katarina shouldn't NEED it. And if she does need armor, she can find it elsewhere (Guardian Angel is a pretty nice pick, huh?). If you want damage, you would be better off picking a second Deathcap instead. Why? Because Rabadon's passive applies to all AP items, so you really get the same cost efficiency out of a second Deathcap.

See what I mean?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ticking Death

Senior Member

10-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanerian View Post
Does no one prioritize W over Q?

Been having good success with that, makes pushing lanes a breeze.
The reason that Q is a priority is because of the extra magic damage. Maxing W is a preference, but that extra damage can scare people. And it really makes her do more damage overall. At max, her Q does a total of 275 damage (to the first target) before AP ratios are applied, including the damage from the mark. Her W does 200 before AP ratios are applied, but she gets an AD boost. Even if she had 100 AD, her W still wouldn't match the damage from her Q and mark consumption (260 damage only from her W in that case). Here is some math:

Assume Kat has 100 AD and no AP. She is also level 9. Shunpo does not change the damage calculations, so I am not including it in this combo.

W is level 5, Q is level 2:

She uses her Q: 95 + 0 (AP) = 95 damage
Then uses her W: 200 + 0 (AP) + 60 (AD) = 260 Damage
Damage by mark: 30 + 0 (AP) = 30 damage
Total Damage: 385 damage

Q is level 5, W is level 2.

She uses her Q: 200 + 0 (AP) = 200 damage
The she uses her W: 80 + 0 (AP) + 60 (AD) = 140 damage
Damage by mark: 75 + 0 (AP) = 75 damage
Total Damage: 415 damage

Realistically, Kat has less AD and more AP by this time. Even with higher-than-realistic AD and leaving all AP out of the equation, maxing her Q first has her deal more damage anyway.

Keep going with maxing W if you want (it might actually help push lanes better - I haven't tried it myself), but numbers don't lie. Maxing Q means more damage from her combo. Hope this helps!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ur little sister

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExValentine0 View Post
Zhonya's is wasted on her. Why? Her ult is channeled, and channeled abilities are canceled by its active. The active also means that the item costs more. Between Zhonya's and Rabadon's, the former has a gold/AP cost of 31. Rabadon's (with its passive included) has a 19.78 gold per AP cost. For Zhonya's, even if we split the recipe items up, divided the recipe cost equally between the items and subtracted the armor cost, Rabadon's is STILL more cost efficient. For Zhonya's:

Total Cost: 3100g
Recipe Cost: 800g
Chain Vest + 0.5*Recipe Cost: 700+400= 1100g
AP only cost: 2000g
Gold per AP: 2000g/100AP = 20

The armor is nice for defense, but a good Katarina shouldn't NEED it. And if she does need armor, she can find it elsewhere (Guardian Angel is a pretty nice pick, huh?). If you want damage, you would be better off picking a second Deathcap instead. Why? Because Rabadon's passive applies to all AP items, so you really get the same cost efficiency out of a second Deathcap.

See what I mean?
You can use Zhonya's active whilst not ulting.
The more you know...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Siary

Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
Kage's? I meant I send them back before they farm enough to get an amp tome generally. Kage is a 12-15 minute mark item ish for them in most of my matches.


Don't let the tower steal cs. Freeze in time. Takes getting used to, but most of the champions I use can do it pretty well.


Brand, Annie, Leblanc, Akali, Kennen, Vladimir and Swain would be the ones I don't think it's possible losing to Kat with. I haven't lost with Morgana or Ryze either against her, but that's just silly. That has to be those Kats, cause if Kat can't handle those guys anymore there's just something REALLY wrong. I have some other mids that I am more hesitant to pick (Gragas and Karthus). And I'm in eternal doubt about Veigar. I'd have to play that matchup more.


Bold part = derpy opponent.
Almost all champions have point&click stuff. Also, the MS buff is only 1 second and she has to start from behind you. She's hittable with skillshots after the MS buff ends if they're long ranged. Though ideally, you would take point&click skills. But almost all champions have those + ranged auto-attacks. I haven't lost trades yet with her :/.


She uses her Q ---> hits minions (either to harass me or to lasthit 1 minion) --> wave pushes to my turret, and will keep doing so for a pretty long time. It also pushes relatively slowly, and I have a lot of control over where it stops. If she uses anything else than Q to farm a minion, I'll try to make sure she either has to use a pot or base. And the thought process behind the roaming is generally "I can't get anything out of this lane anyway, it's lost. Better try to get back by picking up 1 or 2 kills in a sidelane."
Alright well specifically on the mid champs you play to counter kat, the only real one i (i dont know about anyone else) ever have an issue with is Leblanc. I feel like she is almost the only counter to her since her silence + superior burst at low levels. Now considering i only lose to her for the first 15min and at most its only been 2 deaths then easily came back from that.

Now with respect to harrassing kat, she has a lot of mobility of escaping and dodging half the attacks made against her. One thing i always like to do with people that have skill shots is to not Shunpo to them but the the minions near them when they last hit after i have tagged them with BB as SS can easily hit them and i can get out with most of the time not a single scratch.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ticking Death

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ur little sister View Post
You can use Zhonya's active whilst not ulting.
The more you know...
Well, of course you can use it when not ulting. The active would give her a couple seconds to live, but any player that knows Zhonya's would kill her the instant she came out of it. Does it have utility? Yes. Is this utility useful for her? Not nearly as much compared to Morg or Fiddle. Its applications in offense with Fiddle and Morg make it an amazing item for them, but the active, only being used for defense on Kat, makes it wasted at any time other than when she is going to die or needs to wait for cooldowns in a team fight. I think that if its offensive capacity (like on Fiddle and Morg) is wasted, then it shouldn't be used except in certain situations. It has utility, but not the kind that Kat needs.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ur little sister

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExValentine0 View Post
Well, of course you can use it when not ulting. The active would give her a couple seconds to live, but any player that knows Zhonya's would kill her the instant she came out of it. Does it have utility? Yes. Is this utility useful for her? Not nearly as much compared to Morg or Fiddle. Its applications in offense with Fiddle and Morg make it an amazing item for them, but the active, only being used for defense on Kat, makes it wasted at any time other than when she is going to die or needs to wait for cooldowns in a team fight. I think that if its offensive capacity (like on Fiddle and Morg) is wasted, then it shouldn't be used except in certain situations. It has utility, but not the kind that Kat needs.
You realize that defence IS offense right?
The fact that you have that ability basically allows for agressive plays. Zhonya's is an incredibly strong active on any mage that's likely to get focussed at large, as it breaks ennemy focus.

Zhonya's in fact doesn't kill you the instant you come out of it. It doesn't even damage you! I think you're using Zhonya's wrongly (with which I mean I think you're using it to prevent death rather than break focus), and thus are not getting the results you need. It's useful because it allows you to survive in that moment where you as a burst mage are essentially useless (your spells are on cooldown and you're getting focussed). Going into stasis forces your opponents to re-evaluate their strategy (if they just stand still and wait for you to come out, your team should destroy them.), and it minimizes your useless time.

Though newbies do tend to use it as a death prevention tool. This is in general barely useful, because indeed, you'll ppb die anyway. Zhonya's active can redirect huge damage numbers from you (squishy mage) to your tankies. That's how you're supposed to use it.

In short, my opinion is that 2 second stasis + 500g + 50 armor > 40 AP. The longer you stay alive, the more damage you can deal.