Syndra Quality of Life/Useability changes

First Riot Post
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Lunaria

Senior Member

10-12-2012

honestly i don't think any of those changes will fix her.

Her skills are so pathetically slow and give such a large advance of where they will land that even bots can dodge them fairly regularly. You could double all her damages and she would still be too difficult to play to be worth it.

Syndra power with as slow and predictable as she is is pretty much just a direct correlation to how poorly your opponent is playing and has very little to do with your own skill


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MurderX

Junior Member

10-12-2012

The changes mentioned are pretty good imo and I think that after those changes syndra will be vaiable in ranked games and probably tournaments.

About the increase of range on her ult I honestly don't think it is necessary and it might make her somewhat op.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-12-2012
2 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tons of ƒapping View Post
Yay.

I might actually consider buying her instead of Diana now :x.

Are there any thoughts of changing any of her numbers? Her base stats are quite strong it was just her clunkiness that was holding her back.
Not at the moment - we want to assess the impact these changes have first.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoMew View Post
There's a bug where if you throw a minion it'll stop halfway in the air and then just drop seconds later which can be really horrible if you're trying to harass someone or in a tight situation. Also, have you looked into making it so her orbs give vision? It seems silly to not have them give vision, even Kog Maw's ult can give vision.
As far as the throw bug goes I think the changes to the second W cast (buffering the command, rather than blocking it) have fixed that. I wasn't able to consistently reproduce that bug at work however before these changes in the first place so if anyone's got steps for reliably reproducing it that'd be really helpful as a double check.

Vision on the orbs is something we've considered recently and did test during development, at the moment though if we're adding power to the kit I'd prefer to do so in a way that makes the existing effects feel more satisfying, rather than spreading power between a larger number of effects that correspondingly all have to feel weaker as a result (a problem that in retrospect her passive suffers from to some degree).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulStanely View Post
Are these changes available on the PBE?
If not when will they be
Not yet. I'll bump this thread when they are though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjavamp View Post
Sweet. Looking forward to those usability improvements as I thought her damage is okay'ish already so... Hopefully you don't make her fotm there And thanks a lot for taking your time to improve her Meddler.

Small question though, are you increasing visuals aswell? I'm speaking about two things. 1st the spheres on the alternate skin being not very well readable (and kinda invisible for colorblind people) and 2nd general shere cast indicators missing atm imo (i.e. When using scatter the weak having indicators where and how far the spheres would go would be awsome. Of course that would look messy though. I propose small arrow indicators that are only visible to the Syndra player and which would adjust depending on Syndras position to the speres so you'd get a rough direction. I was looking to add a pic but I'm posting on phone so I'll come back to it later.)

Cheere, Akuni EUW

Edit: Added the picture. I think the idea itself is pretty self-explaining already but more pictures are always good ^^
I'm also leaving a photobucket link... As the attachment file looked a bit... small <_<

Said photobucket link - Use if your eyes bleed while watching the attachment
R.e. Justicar Sphere visbility that's beyond the scope of this set of changes, though it is something I'd really like to investigate, particularly issues with colorblindness, when a particle artist's available. Something that will be included however is some form of improvement to the initial grab targeting on Force of Will (either grabbing spheres in a larger area around the cursor or simply grabbing the nearest sphere if no valid target is clicked on) to avoid the 'I cast Q and then couldn't find the sphere in a busy team fight' problem.

Skillshot indicators from the spheres is something I was hoping we'd be able to try during development, the tech for it turned out to be quite a bit trickier than I'd expected. I've got some ideas on that front I'd like to explore at a later point, that's a surprisingly big job though and one I'm a bit cautious about the impacts of given that learning to judge sphere knockbacks is one of the points of mastery on the kit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OpheliaImmortal View Post
I really like Syndra myself (but get raged at for picking her)
Have you considered increasing her base movement speed? It is really bad with the type of kit she has.
Syndra's base speed is a bit below average for a mage however we're currently very happy with that given that both her Q and W can be cast while moving which gives her a lot of kiting/damage while chasing potential.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
Meddler, I want to use Rengar as an example here:

When he was released many believed he was underpowered, but as soon as he got a few buffs and major QoL changes, he quickly shot up into broken/OP territory by many players. Do you think now that Syndra has gotten major power buffs to all abilities, and will soon get QoL changes to make her abilities more responsive/easier to execute, that she will potentially enter some sort of overpowered territory?

I find her zoning and stun to be very effective in-lane as is, and I fear that she will become too powerful with the zoning and base power she has now. I can already imagine Syndra players landing every stun, hitting every Q, and getting out 3 spheres and annhilate\ing squishies for 3000+ damage within a few seconds with little effort and risk. I hope I didn't overexaggerate, but I am fearful for what she may become given super powered abilities that are easy to execute (Maybe Release Zyra is an example to use here)
I don't believe these changes will push her into overpowered status, we'll see how testing internally and on the PBE goes of course though and definitely monitor her status closely after their release. I'm certainly not expecting she'll get pushed into the extremely easy to execute category. Her spells should feel a bit more responsive/flow together a bit better but she's very much intended to be a high skill cap mage.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-12-2012
3 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feladorzor View Post
Hello Meddler. Thank you for acknowledging that Syndra is indeed quite unreliable as a champion right now, its promising to know that she's not being left as is for the next year on the hopes someone 'discovers' her.

A few days after Syndras release I made a thread with my analysis of her. It got 150+ upvotes showing that many people were having issues with her basic design. I will just say that I was against her damage buffs as I knew she required more than just buffs/nerfs to her numbers, she almost needed a redesign to fix the awkwardness of her kit.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2574259 - Link to said thread.

If you would please take a few minutes to read it, it will save me the trouble of typing everything in here. In any case, I came up with a solution to fixing Syndra which will make her feel like a combo champ, creating synergy in her kit and make her viable in team fights all while remaining true to her initial design intentions. Keep in mind that this fix would be for Syndra in her current state without any QoL or Usability changes, bar maybe some damage reduction due to the impact it would have;

Any active 'Dark Spheres' which are activated by Syndra's other abilities will now add bonus magic damage (equivalent to Dark Sphere).

I believe that this simple change will completely solidify the way that Syndra is meant to be played while making her kit flow with synergy. Syndra can now set up her Spheres without sacrificing the majority of her damage output because those active orbs will now deal the same damage as Q on top of whatever spell she uses on it.

Force of Will: When leashing a Dark Sphere deals 80/120/160/200/240 (+0.7) + 60/100/140/180/220 (+0.5) in additional magic damage. Does not add bonus magic damage when throwing minions or monsters.

Scatter the Weak: Each Dark Sphere activated by Scatter the Weak deals 70/115/160/205/250 (+0.4) + 60/100/140/180/220 (+0.5) in additional magic damage.

Unleashed Power: Does not get additional bonus damage from active orbs.

Despite the ultimate not getting the damage bonus this allows for one very important thing to happen. Syndra can now use her single target ultimate on a bruiser/tank in the middle of a team fight and follow that up with Scatter the Weak, dealing lots of AoE damage and distorting the enemy team.

Again, this type of change would require a review of her damage output, but this is just what she needs to become a viable mage with a fluid kit. Right now she just isn't a combo champ, she is a champion with 4 seperate skills that do their own thing and the only thing that makes them remotely similar is the underwhelming interaction between the Dark Spheres. The suggested change could even be a new passive for her.

Thank you for reading good sir, I hope whatever changes you do make to Syndra they will be good. Anivia is a shining example of a champion that has a fluid kit and I hope that can be replicated with Syndra.
It's certainly possible that Syndra's mana costs are still a bit high and that's something I'm interested in assessing after this set of changes. She is intended to be more mana restricted than some of our other recent AP champs however, and consequently be rewarded for itemizing for mana in the same way that champs like Anivia are.

Regarding bonus damage when manipulating Dark Spheres there are a few reasons this was avoided. The first is to avoid a situation where not using a Dark Sphere is always the wrong play. At the moment there are a number of situations where throwing a minion or going for the knockback without stun are the better choice. If Dark Sphere's granted noticeable bonus damage however we'd have to cut the spell's base damage significantly to account for that, which results in a spell that feels pretty poor when not combo'd (a forced combo effectively). This is the same reason that Dark Spheres don't have an AOE damage aura, -MR aura or anything similar while present on the ground. We tested those sorts of effects and the benefit was extremely hard to notice/feel, while the base damage of Dark Sphere itself had to be a lot lower to compensate for that invisible power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiftiez View Post
Here's an idea. If Syndra uses W to pick up her own orb it stays with her until reactivation of W. This should not be the case when using the ability on a minion. This would allow her a bit of burst, safety, and roaming gank potential. This should not change the cooldown timer as it begins on W reactivation.

When we look as mage gameplay, most of them have a setup to execute large damage. (Ahri, Diana, Veigar, etc.) With Syndra her stun is tricky to land due to ball direction and positioning (you have to be in a straight line with the target). This feature makes optimal positioning unwieldy to line up a stun for a burst combo to follow. Also why would you make her stun ability move targets out of range for her to burst? This essentially turns her into a support, not an assassin.

Her trade-offs in the magic triad of burst, survivability and mobility are out of whack because all of these are low. For Syndra to be useful, one of these must be raised so the trade-off is intuitively apparent.
A reduced knockback range on targets hit by the stun and the knockback together to better align with other spell ranges is indeed another of the changes to be tested. I agree that's a bit of an issue and something we should have looked at more when we reduced her ult's range just pre release on balance grounds.


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Tempestphile

Senior Member

10-12-2012

kisses meddler


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

10-12-2012
4 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightOfOrder View Post
I dont see you answering any question, Meddler, but i hope you can indulge me for a second. Have you ever though about reverting her Q CD to how it was before she went live, by that i mean it having a 3 sec CD at max level, she's really really dependant on her Q and making it a wee bit more spammy would help her a ton to make her a threat in teamfights.
Sorry for the delay on getting back to this thread, got some other stuff to work on at the moment that's taking a lot of time (hence some of the comments above r.e. stuff I'd like to investigate at a later time after this set of tweaks). The Q cooldown's another thing I'd like to look at given it helps flow on the other skills, it does dramatically increase the amount of casts the enemy team feel forced to try and dodge and the potential power of her ultimate however which is why it was changed to a flat CD in the first place.


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Benign Sentinel

Senior Member

10-12-2012

Syndra is one of the strongest laners at the moment, but tapers off in team fights. Her ultimate just doesn't have the strength that an ultimate should have, while her normal abilities are a little too strong.



Some damage nerf on her normal abilities, followed by a what I think is a bug fix for her e, and some kind of utility buff for her ultimate would make her much more viable.

The problem I have with her E happens when an enemy will step ON TOP of one of your spheres. If you E the sphere (and the enemy) as they do this, they will not get stunned, but only slightly knocked back. This leads to a lot of confusion and unnecessary deaths since it is unclear what will actually constitute a stun.

Syndra's ultimate has a problem with, although being great for picking people off with a large extra chunk of burst, just a lack of functionality with anything. Late game you won't be able to target anyone in the back with your ult, so you'll end up tossing it onto a malphite or someone else in your face.
- If you try to get a couple extra spheres out before ulting to do some extra damage, you will have had to use your "E" already. Due to the fact that the team fight will have moved by the time your "E" is back up, you won't be able to combo the two abilities as you are supposed to.
- If you toss the ult out early, it does massively reduced damage, and takes too long for all the spheres to get onto the ground to use your "E" effectively.



Therefore, my suggested changes to her would be as follows:



1) Reduce the damage of her Q, but increase the damage at level 9 to ~20-25% bonus damage to compensate for whatever was lost. The combination of her 3 main abilities makes it very hard to lane against her as any character.

2) Fix interactions between enemies and her sphere / "E" combo

3) Increase particle speed (and firing speed) and range of her ult.


**EDIT**
I reread your first post to see the comment on the bugfix regarding her "Scatter the weak" with the spheres on top of enemies; sorry for the confusion.


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KingofMaelstroms

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Senior Member

10-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Sorry for the delay on getting back to this thread, got some other stuff to work on at the moment that's taking a lot of time (hence some of the comments above r.e. stuff I'd like to investigate at a later time after this set of tweaks). The Q cooldown's another thing I'd like to look at given it helps flow on the other skills, it does dramatically increase the amount of casts the enemy team feel forced to try and dodge and the potential power of her ultimate however which is why it was changed to a flat CD in the first place.
You could negate the added power of her ultimate by lowering the amount of time the spheres remain active. It wouldn't be to drastic since your decreasing the CD of her Q which still allows her to have sphere placement.


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Lore Wrotten

Senior Member

10-12-2012

Have you guys thought about providing her with an actual passive? Right now she doesn't truly have one, especially when held up beside Kha'zix who gets major ability buffs (that you aren't required to max skills for) and has a passive. You could still maintain her design of maxing abilities by making it so the passive benefits are only granted each time you max one of her skills, but as it stands her passive is just a placeholder.


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Udajit

Senior Member

10-12-2012

Meddler, has any one internally discussed the possibility of casting Scatter the Weak in different directions originating from a placed orb?

For instance, I put an orb behind Brand and cast it behind him, pushing the orb (and subsequently, him) towards me - and my team.

I think it would lend a tremendous amount of power to Syndra.