Demacia or Noxus?

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Lewpaka

Senior Member

10-11-2012

I'm going to have to go with Noxus, but only because I love Zaun. Not because the brutality or harshness, so much as talent in any form in properly recognized. Where you're from or what you look like matters for nothing, it's what you do that defines you. I feel like in Demacia, you either have to be an elite warrior or from the upper class to even be noticed.


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webbut

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Demacia just because I do not have super strength, battle prowess, or scientific knowledge and for every day normal citizens Noxious sounds like a **** hole. Where as Demacia sounds like nice place outside of the military which seems a bit iffy.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsaalyo View Post
Demacia, without question. I'll take overly strict laws* over being killed in the streets and nobody caring because "might is right."

*Overly strict. Hah. Sivir got 90 days for what she did. She'd get more than that in Canada.
You are already well aware that Sivir got a light sentence only because of her fame and position. Given that you know that already, I assume you are implying that it is fair, or at least "more fair", for celebs to be given lighter penalties than normal people in Demacia. Correct?


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Tsaalyo

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10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457 View Post
You are already well aware that Sivir got a light sentence only because of her fame and position. Given that you know that already, I assume you are implying that it is fair, or at least "more fair", for celebs to be given lighter penalties than normal people in Demacia. Correct?
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm, in fact, spitting in the face of people who claim Demacia's laws are draconian and immobile. Were Demacia that bad, Sivir would not have gotten a lighter sentence. Hell, she helped Noxus in planning the Ionian campaign. She's practically a war criminal. She left Noxus not because what they were doing was wrong, but because she felt the plan was not being planned in a way that would achieve victory. She looked at what Noxus was strategizing and said "Hey, this mass genocide is not being PLANNED CORRECTLY".

And despite that, Demacia welcomes her within its borders. And when she steals a car and trashes a huge part of the city, what happens? A joke of a sentence. Demacia's critics would have you believe Sivir would have been executed in the middle of the market square, but nope. Not even close.

That's why I would live in Demacia. Draconian laws? Oh please.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsaalyo View Post
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm, in fact, spitting in the face of people who claim Demacia's laws are draconian and immobile. Were Demacia that bad, Sivir would not have gotten a lighter sentence. Hell, she helped Noxus during the Ionian campaign. She's practically a war criminal. She left Noxus not because what they were doing was wrong, but because she felt the plan was not being planned in a way that would achieve victory. She looked at what Noxus was strategizing and said "Hey, this mass genocide is not being PLANNED CORRECTLY".

And despite that, Demacia welcomes her within its borders. And when she steals a car and trashes a huge part of the city, what happens? A joke of a sentence. Demacia's critics would have you believe Sivir would have been executed in the middle of the market square, but nope. Not even close.

That's why I would live in Demacia. Draconian laws? Oh please.
You avoided answering the question. You are well aware that Sivir recieved special treatment due to fame and her position and that the ordinary citizen does not recieve these benefits. You didn't actually answer what I asked.

First off, A government doesn't turn on a merc because the merc worked for someone else, especially if that merc terminates a contract with the enemy - not if the government has have half a brain, at least. Do you actually think any government would turn away her services on the basis of her war history? Not a chance, if they believe they stand enough to gain.

This is something you will see every time there is draconian law - the law is for the masses, not for special people. Draconian law is enforced by rulers onto those beneath, not by rulers onto themselves or their special group of friends. You didn't say that it isn't draconian, you just said that it's hypocritical. So, you didn't answer my question.

Not that the hypocritical behavior is inherently bad, but I'd prefer it was acknowledged and that we didn't play pretend.


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Renekton Bot

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Senior Member

10-11-2012

heh yeah id support noxus definitely................ *smooths out black trenchcoat*

mostly bc I agree with the philosify that mite makes right witch I apply in my own life heh, im not scared of dying anyone gives me trouble heh theyll have to get through my twin katanas first....................... (been training with them for 4 years gonna get a new pair when i turn 16) i can actually slice through a bullet heh did it once at my frends house................

also noxus is cooler, has cooler champs like katrina and talen, people I'd like to be like someday, perfect assassins who dont take orders from nobody heh........... *lights up cigarette, takes a slow drag, coughs violently*

in demacia ur a slave to ur leaders a nameless faceless puppet n nobody cares about u noxus ur like the wolf the pack looks out for one another demacia ur a number.......

in real life the strong shud rule the weak thats why ur either strong or ur wrong america the land of the free ehe give me a brake were all just slaves but soon theres gonna be a revolushen

heh noxus 4 life.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........................................


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Tsaalyo

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10-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457 View Post
You avoided answering the question. You are well aware that Sivir recieved special treatment due to fame and her position and that the ordinary citizen does not recieve these benefits. You didn't actually answer what I asked.

First off, A government doesn't turn on a merc because the merc worked for someone else, especially if that merc terminates a contract with the enemy - not if the government has have half a brain, at least. Do you actually think any government would turn away her services on the basis of her war history? Not a chance, if they believe they stand enough to gain.

This is something you will see every time there is draconian law - the law is for the masses, not for special people. Draconian law is enforced by rulers onto those beneath, not by rulers onto themselves or their special group of friends. You didn't say that it isn't draconian, you just said that it's hypocritical. So, you didn't answer my question.

Not that the hypocritical behavior is inherently bad, but I'd prefer it was acknowledged and that we didn't play pretend.
I thought I answered your question quite clearly when I said that's not what I'm saying at all. But to clarify: you asked me if it's fair that celebs (let's just say noteworthy people, she's not Lady Gaga, lol) be given a lighter sentence. My answer: No.

But that's the thing. We have an example in Sivir in which she got a joke of a sentence, but the way you play it off makes it seem like Hypocritical Demacia simply smacked her upside the head and told her to scram. While 90 days is less than what she'd get anywhere in our first world, that's still way more than any "celebrity" would get. What I'm saying is that her case makes a point for Demacia's lenience, and the fact that Demacia does look at a case and crime from every angle before laying down a sentence. I've yet to see lore in which someone was killed for littering, despite the exaggerations of certain non-you people on these forums. And another reason her case is an example of Demacian lenience? Yes, to a normal government in this sort of fantasy universe, you do not turn down the help of a mercenary, even if they aided your enemies in the past.

But this is Demacia. This is the nation where everyone wants so badly to believe that you're killed in the streets for showing the slightest shred of sympathy towards Noxus. This is the nation about which people always recite militaristic lines, calling their enemies 'weeds that must be uprooted before they soil the garden, leave no stone unturned', and whatnot. But at the end of the day, what happens when a mercenary who helped Demacia's most sworn mortal enemy wants to visit? A woman who left because that dumping poison and acid on women and children of a peaceful island nation was not sufficiently planned? A woman who, as a result of that, is basically the definition of the infectious weed that Demacia exists to uproot and burn?

Nothing.

What happens when this virtual war criminal commits grand theft auto and a few million dollars worth of destruction of property, both government and private?

A slap on the wrist.

Say what you will about the evils of Demacia's ruthless draconian laws, but aside from Garen executing Noxians on the fields of battle during times of war, I'm not aware of ANY examples of this. "There are no misdemeanors in Demacia" does not equate to "you get the death penalty for everything." You can be let off with a warning for a felony, easy. It happens every day.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

10-12-2012

You seem to have missed part of my post. Draconian laws are not built for everyone to follow, they are built for the masses to follow. There are always special exceptions for people who are valuable or useful enough to merit those exceptions - which is why established draconian law will always be hypocritical.

The law being applied selectively does not excuse it being draconian.

I can name a few places in Africa (or relatively recently, eastern europe... ohh balkans, you stopped your civil war... how the times are changing) where I can go kill a few people for some blood diamonds, maybe ship some arms and weaponry, and go back to the united states and make a good deal of money for myself. Unless the USA is in need of a scapegoat and conveniently finds me, I won't even be tried. I may not even draw any media attention. Is that a testament to the USA being lenient?

There was a guy a few months ago who was executed for rape charges - and the court refused him the opportunity to present DNA evidence in court that he wanted to show.

Selective law does not make it any less draconian. I sell guns to people that happen to be the enemies of the enemies of the US gov, I get a free pass. Someone else is denied the chance to present DNA evidence to prove himself innocent.

I could even kill a few people myself while oversea if I so desired.

We could go to any one of a number of villages. There are plenty of ones that are defenseless. Would you like to go shoot some villagers with me? Heh, it's so fun, watching how parents run to try to get their kids. Hmm, maybe we can maim a few, just for fun. Say, would you like to go into business together? There are plenty of areas that can be used as mines (the stereotype is for diamonds, but there are other resources) if you don't mind a little slave labor.

And after that, we'll go back to the USA.

And resell the blood diamonds and become more wealthy.

And that's it. Nothing else will happen.

The gov may know very well that you're doing that, and as long as you are in some way useful, you get a special exemption, until the point where your costs outweigh your benefits. But someone else gets accused of rape and he's not even allowed to present the DNA evidence he wanted to show. (found out about that incident on the SXEphil show, since I keep referring to it).

I can go oversea, kill, rape, torture, and maim - purely for sport and for my personal enjoyment - and the US gov may know very well that I am doing it - and be given zero reprocussion.

Because I'm special.

Not evidence that it's "being lenient and examining things from every angle".

All draconian laws are selective. The fact that they are selective does not make them less draconian.

You already mentioned performing field executions on prisoners of war, so...

Want to go to to africa (or south america, whatever your preference is, plenty of third world nations to go around. I should check and see if east europe is still kickin') and hunt some people for pleasure and sport? Maybe turn a profit while we're there? I'm sure our home nations will be very understanding and lenient.

After all, a man has needs. = )

Da point - a "Celeb" will be given a slap on the wrist even if the society is Draconian. You already acknowledged that not everyone was given the special benefits that Sivir was, so I had to conclude that your argument was that if Demacia was Draconian, they wouldn't have given Sivir her "Celeb" leniency. That's simply not true - Draconian societies still give special benefits to special people. Pretty much everyone does, with varrying degrees of hypocrisy.

Even if it was true, her league champion status (as she was one at the time) probably would've entitled her to some measure of "diplomatic immunity" anyway.

Now, off to south america! I need to visit some of my cannibal friends, I heard they've destroyed another rival village and are going to host a great feast before the meat goes bad.

I'll be sure to bring some meat back for you.

Don't worry, it's healthy so long as it's cooked right. = )


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Imhotep 2

Senior Member

10-12-2012

No Ionia? Definitely I would be with them.


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Tsaalyo

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10-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by belthazor3457 View Post
You seem to have missed part of my post. Draconian laws are not built for everyone to follow, they are built for the masses to follow. There are always special exceptions for people who are valuable or useful enough to merit those exceptions - which is why established draconian law will always be hypocritical.

The law being applied selectively does not excuse it being draconian.

I can name a few places in Africa (or relatively recently, eastern europe... ohh balkans, you stopped your civil war... how the times are changing) where I can go kill a few people for some blood diamonds, maybe ship some arms and weaponry, and go back to the united states and make a good deal of money for myself. Unless the USA is in need of a scapegoat and conveniently finds me, I won't even be tried. I may not even draw any media attention. Is that a testament to the USA being lenient?

There was a guy a few months ago who was executed for rape charges - and the court refused him the opportunity to present DNA evidence in court that he wanted to show.

Selective law does not make it any less draconian. I sell guns to people that happen to be the enemies of the enemies of the US gov, I get a free pass. Someone else is denied the chance to present DNA evidence to prove himself innocent.

I could even kill a few people myself while oversea if I so desired.

We could go to any one of a number of villages. There are plenty of ones that are defenseless. Would you like to go shoot some villagers with me? Heh, it's so fun, watching how parents run to try to get their kids. Hmm, maybe we can maim a few, just for fun. Say, would you like to go into business together? There are plenty of areas that can be used as mines (the stereotype is for diamonds, but there are other resources) if you don't mind a little slave labor.

And after that, we'll go back to the USA.

And resell the blood diamonds and become more wealthy.

And that's it. Nothing else will happen.

The gov may know very well that you're doing that, and as long as you are in some way useful, you get a special exemption, until the point where your costs outweigh your benefits. But someone else gets accused of rape and he's not even allowed to present the DNA evidence he wanted to show. (found out about that incident on the SXEphil show, since I keep referring to it).

I can go oversea, kill, rape, torture, and maim - purely for sport and for my personal enjoyment - and the US gov may know very well that I am doing it - and be given zero reprocussion.

Because I'm special.

Not evidence that it's "being lenient and examining things from every angle".

All draconian laws are selective. The fact that they are selective does not make them less draconian.

You already mentioned performing field executions on prisoners of war, so...

Want to go to to africa (or south america, whatever your preference is, plenty of third world nations to go around. I should check and see if east europe is still kickin') and hunt some people for pleasure and sport? Maybe turn a profit while we're there? I'm sure our home nations will be very understanding and lenient.

After all, a man has needs. = )

Da point - a "Celeb" will be given a slap on the wrist even if the society is Draconian. You already acknowledged that not everyone was given the special benefits that Sivir was, so I had to conclude that your argument was that if Demacia was Draconian, they wouldn't have given Sivir her "Celeb" leniency. That's simply not true - Draconian societies still give special benefits to special people.

Even if it was true, her league champion status (as she was one at the time) probably would've entitled her to some measure of "diplomatic immunity" anyway.

Now, off to south america! I need to visit some of my cannibal friends, I heard they've destroyed another rival village and are going to host a great feast before the meat goes bad.

I'll be sure to bring some meat back for you.

Don't worry, it's healthy so long as it's cooked right. = )
You're exaggerating your argument to ridiculous proportions. There's a reason you can and will be tried for child *** crimes even if you commit them in another country. Two jurisdictional laws in the United States are relevant to this:

Quote:
The nationality principle holds that the government of a citizen can obtain jurisdiction over its citizen even when that citizen is abroad. For example, U.S. citizens are still required to pay federal taxes to the U.S. government when abroad and may be prosecuted for a failure to do so.

The universality principle (principle of universal jurisdiction) is closely aligned with the international law doctrine of peremptory norms (jus cogens). The principle holds that all states have jurisdiction over crimes that are universally recognized to be a crime against humanity. These have historically included piracy, slave-trading, torture, genocide, and perhaps terrorism.
The United States does everything possible to ensure that you are getting your ass hauled into their courts, no matter what you do or where. Yes, there are cases where the law does nothing in the face of blatant wrongdoings, but good luck with that if the public ever catches wind of it. The second the public hears about it, so begins the outcry and so begins the actual application of justice. Usually overdone, knee-jerk justice as the government is forced to make an example of you. Bringing this back to the fake world, it's pretty obvious that, yes, the public was well aware of what happened with Sivir. The supposedly brainwashed masses of Demacia's corrupt regime did not rise up in mindless arms about the meaningless sentence that that toxic Noxian weed received for her deplorable crimes against Valoran's shining bastion of justice.

Note that I phrased it that way to mock Demacia's critics.

What does that tell you about Demacia's supposed brutally strict legal system? What does this tell you about how much Demacia supposedly brainwashes its citizens with cultish scripture on the matter? Demacia is a normal legal system and is full of normal people. No misdemeanors? Doesn't matter. You're not getting killed for jaywalking.


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