Hybrid Penatration item concept - Anuket's Halberd

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Dark Kuno

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaP616 View Post
The issue wich such an item is that it is flat pen which is only good for taking out squishy champs.

IF you have 20 flat pen vs 30% pen the 30% pen is better against targets with 67 or more armor/MR.

Armor/Magic pen late game is mainly idea for taking down say a shen with 300 aromor and 200 MR. After you take down the Ez who only has around 50 armor without the aid of items.

This is also an idea 5th hybrid item to go with gunblade, rageblade lichbane/triforce and some defensive +AP/AD item such as a crystal scepter.
Seems like a more logical build path for an item of this type. And nothing would stop the upgrade from being % instead of flat.

Allows to upgrade the early/mid game flat ArPen/spell Pen into % penetration. And also gives the two component items an appreciative build flexibility that they are both sorely lacking they already have.

Also Lichbane isn't really a hybrid item. It synergizes off of AP stacking over AD. Much like triforce synergizes off of AD more than AP. Most AD who build Triforce build it for the Sheen and Phage procs with the other stats being gravy. Vastly different from the true hybrids who need to itemize (relatively) equally for AP and AD.


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-04-2012

The other issue you are ignoring is that it would be an item with at least

25 AD
10% CDR
some kind of armor pen
25 AP
200 health.
and some kind of armor pen.

I don't see them having flat armor/magic pen building into % armor pen. That is the first issue.

THe second is that such an item would be a must buy item instead of a situational item that is only ideal in some games.

THe third is that if they have it build out of items that have a given ammout of penatration. the final item needs to have the same if not more of that stat to start with. If you have a flat say 25% of armor and magic pen then there is nothing stopping someone from getting last whisper with it just for more armor pen without having to sacrifice on anything.

I have seen how LW on it's own can decide who wins top. That is why I don't want this item to be something that is a instant buy and it solves all problems I am looking for an item that is good late game when % pen is most useful.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaP616 View Post
The other issue you are ignoring is that it would be an item with at least

25 AD
10% CDR
some kind of armor pen
25 AP
200 health.
and some kind of armor pen.

I don't see them having flat armor/magic pen building into % armor pen. That is the first issue.

THe second is that such an item would be a must buy item instead of a situational item that is only ideal in some games.

THe third is that if they have it build out of items that have a given ammout of penatration. the final item needs to have the same if not more of that stat to start with. If you have a flat say 25% of armor and magic pen then there is nothing stopping someone from getting last whisper with it just for more armor pen without having to sacrifice on anything.

I have seen how LW on it's own can decide who wins top. That is why I don't want this item to be something that is a instant buy and it solves all problems I am looking for an item that is good late game when % pen is most useful.
I dont think that necessarily would have to be the case. Technically, if the enemy team is building lots of armor/MR, then by changing for a percentage penetration IS giving you at least as much penetration as with your flat pen item. You wouldnt be forced to buy this item unless the situation called for it, plus you could build useful items from its build tree while you are working your way to it.


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-09-2012

bump


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JeeFour

Member

10-10-2012

@Zap616 - Off the top of my head (didn't do research, I gotta go to work) Can you comment on how items like Madred's Blood Razor, Malady, and Wit's End would be affected by Anuket's? Because DPS is 2 parts, Attack Speed and Attack Damage. If you stack AD and one of these items with Anuket's, wouldn't that be overpowered?

Again, sorry no research on this, gotta go to work.


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeeFour View Post
@Zap616 - Off the top of my head (didn't do research, I gotta go to work) Can you comment on how items like Madred's Blood Razor, Malady, and Wit's End would be affected by Anuket's? Because DPS is 2 parts, Attack Speed and Attack Damage. If you stack AD and one of these items with Anuket's, wouldn't that be overpowered?

Again, sorry no research on this, gotta go to work.
THere is not really any reason to get it on an on hit attack speed champ who uses a lot of items like wit's and nashor's.

If it were to have a % pen based on attack speed then you would be seeing something like a full stacked rageblade giving 4.65% physical pen and 5.5333% magic pen.

I can't for sure say that adding a magic pen % for attack speed would make this item balanced because it could end up making champs like WW and teemo broken due to there passive on hit magic damage and the lack of things they would be sacrificing in getting this item.

I don't want to make Boots + Frozen mallet + Madred's + Anuket's + Black cleaver + Malady the new Meta for teemos everywhere. It is already bad enough once he gets a frozen mallet without having % penetration.

As the item currently stands there is not much of a reason to get Anukets on an attack speed on hit champion because there would not be that much actual magic penetration from anukets without the Attack damage.


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JeeFour

Member

10-10-2012

Okay, did my research, let me clear something up. First allow me to apologize if you know how damage mitigation is calculated. If you do, just go ahead and skip to paragraph 2. Your first post talks about why stacking penetration won't adversely affect gameplay, which is true. Your argument isn't correct though. Damage mitigation calculations are done in 4 steps, 1) Flat Reduction 2) Percentage Reduction 3) Flat Penetration 4) Percentage Penetration. Keep in mind that if the Armor or Magic Resistance falls below zero at any step, then the remaining steps are skipped. Also note that penetration can't drop defenses below zero, only reduction can. Last note, when we deal with percentages, a smaller number will yield much smaller results.

So to adjust or affect Damage output through penetration is an excellent idea. I ran some numbers with a few common examples and found that damage was roughly the same. Game testing would be needed to properly balance the proportions. Other than that, stacking percentages doesn't provide the great advantage that some have made it out to seem.
So, Wit's End: wouldn't have an impact, Madred's Blood Razor: wouldn't have an impact, Malady: would make a nice pairing, but by no means "overpowered." Black Cleaver: same as Malady.

tl;dr : This item achieves your goal of making hybrid builds relevant in the late game against tanks. Also the approach is well thought out. +1


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Irelia Bot

Member

10-13-2012

Bump


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GloryofSorrow

Junior Member

10-14-2012

This would go perfectly with my hybrid kayle. Two Thumbs Up.


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cerabrete2

Member

10-15-2012

I don't see the point of having the AD/AP scaling for the item. It forces you to build both, AD and AP, but also deters you from getting this item. If you you were siding a little more AD then you get the MPEN that is useless to you and vice versa. You could just get buy a Last Whisper/Void Staff that out preform this item completely and would help your higher stat.
Also this item gives only 8% of each penetration with no AP/AD which is compared to the 40% from VS/LW is very low. Its 24% less in total and 32% less in the respective pen, which may be the more useful one depending on the champion. I don't see any incentive to get this over VS/LW unless you have really high stats from 4-5 items.

Example 1:
I currently have 300AP 100AD
Clearly I'd going to do much more magic damage with my current build.
I get 30%APEN and 16%MPEN for this item
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Void staff.

Example 2:
I currently have 300AP 100AD
Clearly I'm going to do much more magic damage with my current build.
If scaled with complimentary stat I get 16%APEN and 30%MPEN for this item.
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Anuket's Halberd. I get a good amount of MPEN which I need and some APEN for my small amount of AD I have.

Example 3:
I currently have 300AP 0AD
I going to do only magic damage like most AP Casters.
I get 30%APEN and 8%MPEN for this item
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Void staff.

Example 4:
I currently have 300AP 0AD
I going to do only magic damage like most AP Casters.
If scaled with complimentary stat I get 8%APEN and 30%MPEN for this item.
I could get 40%MPEN from void staff.

Given these choices I will buy a Void staff.


Make the penetration scale with the complimentary stat (MPEN with AP, APEN with AD). Prevent this from stacking with Void Staff and Last Whisper. Increase the base penetration a bit (%PEN is gonna be less than flat early/mid game so its OK) .