@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowtronix View Post
This may have already been linked, and is now defunct, but it's a good archive:

http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/
Woops, missed this earlier. Thanks for the link! 13 pages of awesome art. There are plenty of pictures I think would have mass appeal, regardless of whether you are a guy or a girl.


On that note, I need to go to bed. Thanks to everyone for the support, and thanks to anyone who respectfully disagreed with me, but at least took the time to understand where I was coming from. I appreciate it.

Edit: Agrias from Final Fantasy Tactics is pictured in that link. She is another great example of a badass female champion that gets fans for being badass.


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Mortrius

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

justice


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soviergn

Senior Member

10-06-2012

84 pages... 84 pages in less then a DAY and still no red post? I could understand if this thread had been going for a month and had gone under the radar, but you'd think a thread that warrants this many responses in less then 24 hours could at least garner a "were working on it" response from the red's instead of just being ignored or unnoticed.


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JykkntiBlind

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Senior Member

10-06-2012

I agree with this. I wasn't expecting to, but really, female armor was funny when I was 12, but it's gotten old now. When I'm playing sivir, I should be playing a grim, serious warrior of battle, not this playboy pretender. There are female characters that should be explicitly sexy or temptress, because it is a reality, and it's interesting, but having every female be like that... is kind of dull.


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WolchBot

Junior Member

10-06-2012

Thanks for a well written argument. I don't know if I understand what your point is though. Do you want more male champions that you find attractive? I don't think they set out to make unattractive male characters (for the most part) and attractiveness is subjective so you will never please everybody with any one design. Because I know you've said you don't want Riot to go back and change the skins and characters that already exist. Also the age argument is a societal issue because young women and older men are often more desirable, with the men being desirable for their status or wealth. This isn't cut and dry but it seems to be common enough in American culture to be a trend at least. (I am not trying to say all women are selfish gold diggers.)

Regarding the harassment of women on LoL. First I don't know why it is anyone's business that you or another player were a woman. It is bs that you feel you need to hide your gender and even worse that some people are fine treating you as less than a man in the game or in your real life. That being said the community in LoL is full of jerks, it does not excuse their actions but there are many mean and angry players that insult anyone.

The real problem I see is that no one actually seems to have a solution to the harassment of people online for issues of gender, race etc. Outside of the community or the company strictly policing it. It seems to me LoL has too many players and Riot certainly doesn't seem to have the motivation to police these issues. So I have no idea what the fix is.


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soviergn

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WolchBot View Post
Thanks for a well written argument. I don't know if I understand what your point is though. Do you want more male champions that you find attractive? I don't think they set out to make unattractive male characters (for the most part) and attractiveness is subjective so you will never please everybody with any one design. Because I know you've said you don't want Riot to go back and change the skins and characters that already exist. Also the age argument is a societal issue because young women and older men are often more desirable, with the men being desirable for their status or wealth. This isn't cut and dry but it seems to be common enough in American culture to be a trend at least. (I am not trying to say all women are selfish gold diggers.)
In regards to "not pleasing everyone with one design" thats his whole point. He wants several designs to try and please everyone. We've got ugly males, no'one looks at Singed's crispy face and goes Id love to break off a piece of that bacon baby. No. We should have the same range of character design in females as in males is the point. The majority should be normal looking, like kayle, while a minority should be more along the lines like Ahri and Misfortune. Right now the balance is opposite. We have a very small minority like kayle, and an overwhelming majority like MF. We should have ugly females, old females, NORMAL females. With all the different options why should over 3/4's of the females that come out be little more then *** objects?


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMage View Post
You can still see the original proportions on her Waterloo and Cowgirl skins. Compare boob size to waist size.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to have boobs like MF's in a vacuum. I'm saying that her boobs are way too large for her body. That is indisputable. "It's her waist's fault, not her boobs'!" is missing the point.


You're saying the pose is okay because she's...French.

...

...

Here's a serious fencer posing for the camera:
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/in...the-camera.jpg

There is rather a large difference.


I routinely wear swimsuits to the battlefield!

Your basic error in reasoning here is arguing that because women sometimes wear clothing like this in particular contexts, that it makes sense in THIS context without thinking of it as inappropriate sexualization. That is false.


Eve is kind of a disaster zone. Her lore is utterly generic horsepucky that in no way fits with her appearance, and the only thing she's going to murder in that outfit is her own thighs as the spikes on her outfit scrape the flesh off her bones. Her new art at least looks slightly more aggressive than the old art, but it still comes off as ridiculous rather than dangerous.


I think that this new angle is a predisposition to think the art is fine, which therefore seeks an excuse for every instance where Riot crossed the line.
Her original proportions are irrelevant, as the different skins are intended to give more diverse appearances. Look at many of the void or other skins in which champs are drastically different or much older/younger then their default/other skins.

Her boobs are possible in the real world... not simply in a vacuum and they are not too large for her body. I have seen many women (even high school girls) with bust much like hers. To claim this as indisputable, coming from you... who often makes informed decent post is a little saddening. The art is much like a visual illusion unless you look carefully and this is mainly due to the way her waste was drawn.

In regards to Fiora.. forgive me if I am mistaken but I do not believe pose was ever mentioned... That aside, her pose is not entirely innacurate but was not intended to be entirely accurate either (this is a topic reds have discussed in the past).
Quote:
Fiora's T&A pose? No excuse for that.
You claim her semi-accurate but not entirely so pose to be sexist and over the top? I'm sorry... I am not following this train of thought.

In regards to swim suits... so it is appropriate in one setting but not in any other? Honestly, it looks like you are arguing simply to try and be right regardless of reasoning with some of these statements. :/

Eve's lore does thematically math her appearance, but I do still agree it is a bit much and could have been better designed.
Theme: vampirism, ultimate predator
Vampires - their theme often involves charm/manipulation over others as well as extremely sexually attractive physical appearances.
Ultimate predator - barbaric almost, animal like hence almost naked but also to be considered is lack of clothing as a way of not being as restricted by them. Also spikes/sharp edges for use in combat along with her draping cloth/material for distraction/illusionary use and sharp claws/dark body (darkness/vamprism).

I could care less to defend Riot. I am simply making sure that people reasonably and objectively look at the topic and that the right approach in regards to sexism/design is taken.

Sexism is unacceptable but I strongly believe that many of you are approaching the situation in the wrong way. Many of you being uninformed on the topic without any effort to research and double check your philosophies or consider other cultures/views/etc. doesn't help this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soviergn View Post
84 pages... 84 pages in less then a DAY and still no red post? I could understand if this thread had been going for a month and had gone under the radar, but you'd think a thread that warrants this many responses in less then 24 hours could at least garner a "were working on it" response from the red's instead of just being ignored or unnoticed.
They are extremely busy with a tourny atm... and there have been MANY threads that go without red posts for much much longer. It isn't exactly odd. Just figured I would point that out so you don't feel it is being ignored.


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Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-06-2012

I stated this after the post but i shall put it up here too as you will be reading up here first i suppose. I am not arguing for one specific side or supporting one side over the other. I am standing on top of the fence looking down on both sides to gain the best position in the argument.
The statements i make are those that are bolded AND underlined in the quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
So I was watching the quarterfinals today, and they did a segment on Alex Ich. Alex talked about how he is one of the few gamers who is married, when inspired a rather odd comment from Phreak. “More girls should play League of Legends.” I found it odd, because the LoL community isn’t always the most welcoming. I know of plenty of girls that do play, and they choose a gender neutral summoner name because of the grief they receive for making their gender known. I know of even more girls that choose not to play LoL at all because they don’t feel welcome.

One of my best friends is a girl gamer. She does play LoL, but only when playing with her boyfriend and myself. She feels marginalized by the LoL community, and Riot endorses this attitude indirectly. Whenever gender issues are brought up in these forums, there is a huge backlash. It’s almost as if gamers are threatened by this topic. They don’t want them womenfolk to change their games to make them more inclusive. They like that Riot caters to the majority (straight white male). Any time someone makes a perfectly valid point about sexism, they are met with massive downvotes and malicious comments.
How has Riot endorsed this attitude? While I’ve never witnessed a Riot take part in burning these feminists at the stake, they do dismiss these topics. I made a post about how human female champions are treated differently than human male champions, and Morello pointed out that I ignored counterexamples like Lulu, Tryndamere, Riven, etc. and therefore my point was invalid. I attempted to reengage Morello in conversation, but it he had moved on to other questions. Meanwhile, I’ve seen two threads this week mocking the entire conversation, each attracted three red posts joining in. These threads claimed that Pentakill Olaf and Gragas over-sexualize the male gender, and has caused the poster to be insecure with his body.

If Riot seriously wants to attract more girls to their games, then I suggest they listen to what the few girls who do play League of Legends have to say. Have a real conversation with them. Entertain the idea that there really is a problem with how women are treated by the players, and how female champions are treated by Riot. I’d find it refreshing if a Riot employee could actually admit that there is a problem, or that I at least raise some valid points. My friend knew Pentakill Olaf was going to be used as a counterpoint to “male champions aren’t sexualized” the second she saw him. But Olaf is not aesthetically pleasing to most women.How so? I'm quite positive women like big muscular men and olaf is by no means grossly muscular to where he would be unattractive. Therefore we can disregard your point as it is only an opinion of yours. Yes it is an opinion, you have no statistics of any kind to back up said point. His physique still caters to the same people that Miss Fortune does.All right...fair enough. But i'm quite sure that champions cater to me (and most people i would assume) in the way they are played more than the way they look. I see the argument that “This is a game. Who cares if a champion is sexy?” That’s not the issue. The problem isn’t that there is no mancandy for women to oggle over.<-- once again your opinion and should be disregarded as it is not a reasonable and valid point. The problem is that champions are treated differently based on whether it is male or female. Riot is completely comfortable sexifying female champion, even in cases where it isn’t actually appropriate for the character. Akali’s outfit is impractical for a ninja. Shen and Kennen are completely covered up, and Akali is constantly on the edge of a nip slip. explain to me why its impractical for a ninja please. It's light fitting, light looking clothing, bare minimum clothing options which is what a ninja would go for in most peoples general idea of a ninja. Speedy, get in get out gotta be fast cause im a ninja. Also, take a look at all of her skins. All of her skins she is quite covered besides her main skin(and nurse akali but ill get to that). 1 skin IMO not being enough to even bother using her as an argument. Akali's nurse skin is another seperate point. You say its not accurate, i say its a game and i present to you this point. Would you purchase a skin of akali in baggy medical scrubs a hairnet and medical gloves?

Yes, there are obvious exceptions. Since I don’t want to be accused of sampling champions that prove my point, and ignoring ones that don’t, I am going to compile a complete list. But first, let’s list all the champions that are irrelevant to the conversation. Morello used Lulu as a counterexample, but I was careful to use the term “adult human females” because yordles just shouldn’t count. They exist to be cute, not sexy. Male yordles are fuzzy animals. Likewise, children shouldn’t count, because sexualizing them is awkward and inappropriate.

Monsters*:
Anivia, Cho’gath, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Hecarim, Karthus, Kha’Zix, Kog’Maw, Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, Sion, Skarner, Trundle, Urgot, Yorick

Yordles:
Amumu, Corki, Heimerdinger, Kennen, Lulu, Poppy, Rumble, Teemo, Tristana, Veigar, Ziggs

Automatons:
Blitzcrank, Orianna

Children:
Annie, Nunu

Anthropomorphic Animals:
Alistar, Nasus, Rammus, Renekton, Rengar, Twitch, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong

Anomalies**:
Brand, Dr. Mundo, Jax, Kassadin, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, Xerath

*My definition of “monsters” might be broader than yours. I went ahead and included all the undead champions, void creatures, and anything that wasn’t humanoid. Anivia is the only female monster, which stands out even further if you lump in the champions that I categorized as Anthropomorphic Animals and Anomalies.

**Anomalies are champions I really didn’t know how to categorize. An argument could be made that they are human enough to qualify for the main conversation, or that they could be thrown into the monster list. If someone wants to reference one of these champions for the sake of an argument, I’d be willing to consider it.
So that leaves us with the following champions:

Adult Humans:
Ahri, Akali, Ashe, Caitlyn, Cassiopeia, Darius, Diana, Draven, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiora, Gangplank, Garen, Gragas, Graves, Irelia, Janna, Jarvan IV, Jayce, Karma, Katarina, Kayle, LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Leona, Lux, Malzahar, Master Yi, Miss Fortune, Morgana, Nidalee, Olaf, Pantheon, Riven, Ryze, Sejuani, Shaco, Shen, Shyvana, Singed, Sivir, Sona, Soraka, Swain, Syndra, Talon, Taric, Tryndamere, Twisted Fate, Udyr, Varus, Vayne,Viktor, Vladamir, Xin Zhao, Zilean, Zyra

Not all of these champions are human, such as Zyra, Varus, Kayle, Shyvana, etc., but have enough human traits to count. Sure, Cassiopeia is partially a snake, and Ahri has nine tails, but what keeps them from being anthropomorphic animals is the fact that parts of their bodies look completely human. so Dr. Mundo is completely human shaped but is just overly muscular (goes with his lore) yet he gets put into the anomalies because hes not a women that proves the point you are trying to make. Flawed logic

So now that we got that out of the way, we can finally get to the meat and potatoes. The argument I am trying to make is not that every female champions is sexualized, and zero male champions are. My argument is that female champions are treated differently, and that there is less diversity amongst the female cast members. I will start with the most obvious disparity, which just happens to be sexualization.

Let’s compare male and female champions that receive comparable skins. Male champions tend to receive legitimate “profession” skins, like cop, doctor, cowboy, etc. Female champions tend to get stripper versions of those skins. The following is a list of what I call “Stripper Skins.” For contrast, I compare them to equivalent male skins.

• Nurse Akali is a stripper nurse. No real nurse dresses like that. However, strippers with themed costumes do dress like that. Surgeon Shen is an actual medical professional.As i stated before, would you buy scrubs, hairnet, medical gloves akali? Please explain how to make an unofficial looking doctors skin for a champion thats face is always shrouded. Have an answer for that question, then tell me how making two identical skins would sell.
• Cowgirl Miss Fortune is just missing a pole. Her attire is completely impractical I sure hope she is wearing underwear under that flap. High Noon Twisted Fate actually looks like he belongs in the Wild West. Sheriff Caitlyn is wearing hotpants.1. Most everyones attire in the game is impractical. the point was western looking skin, was that point achieved? Yes. Is she showing off an obnoxious amount of skin or cleavage. No.
As for sheriff caitlyn, IMO she looks badass in that skin and how much skin is she showing? her upper thighs and shoulders.

• Officer Caitlyn is in many ways the most disappointing. She is in a position of authority. She is the Sheriff of Piltover. But, she gets a stripper cop outfit. Riot Graves, and outlaw, actually looks like a real cop. No officer in real life dresses like Caitlyn.is this real life, nope. They’d never be taken seriously. She could have been a badass. Real missed opportunity, here. Alright, so the huge gun and the badass grin aren't good enough for you? I can agree partly about this skin BUT let em ask you this: Whens the last time you watched an action movie with a lead role being a woman who doesn't show skin or act sexy during said movie while being badass at the same time. Just because they show off some skin doesn't mean they are restricted from being a badass at the same time. Your mindset and your argument are the reasons you didn't even think about that.
• Battle Bunny Riven is a Playboy Bunny. This is the most blatant one of them all. You can’t even pretend that this is anything but a stripper skin. There isn’t a male counterpart for this. this is by far your worst point. Riot has tried so hard to come off as a company that listens and responds to their fan base and IMO they succeed most of the time. This skin was petitioned for a countless amount of time on the forums. Gathering tons and tons of support, bumps, upvotes and riot posts. You can't blame riot for skins the community suggests. Especially when its a good idea (she hops around like a bunny already...i mean....cmon)
• Prestigious LeBlanc is a Vegas showgirl. Magnificent Twisted Fate is an actual magician.show me a vegas showgirl that doesnt look like that
• French Maid Nidalee is something you’d see in a gentleman’s club.ya....kind of exactly what a french maid looks like in everyones mind.
• Heartseeker Vayne. I guess if Jack of Hearts Twisted Fate is the male equivalent, though again, the male character is fully clothed. Your arguments are silly, if they had cut off the sleeves of TF's outfit your argument would not be valid...and cutting off the sleeves of someones outfit to validate your argument does not make said point a very strong one. There are plenty of male skins and regular art that are not fully clothed.
• Mistletoe LeBlanc, Candy Cane Miss Fortune, Snow Bunny Nidalee draw a strong contrast to Santa Gragas and Old St. Zilean.gragas already fits a description for santa as well as zilean. they already fit the look for those skins. Are you saying you would like some sexy gragas and zilean skins? too bad zileans an old man and gragas is fat enough to block out the sun.Candy cane miss fortune since her guns are already shaped somewhat similar to candy canes? nidalee hops around in bushs the way you think a bunny would, gragas looks like santa so they made a santa skin for him. same situation.Maokais a tree, so they made a christmas tree themed skin, is that a problem to make skins relating to what the championis already like. If nidalee was a guy she would have received the same art look IMO. snow bunny nidalee is also nothing but a recoloring which confuses me as to why its included in your argument.
• Sandstorm Katarina is a belly dancer.And? twisted fate is a ladies man lookin kinda guy doin the tango. THE DANCE OF LOVE. you overlook too many things
• Red Card Katarina doesn’t dress like any referee I’ve ever seen. Fifa banned players from taking their shirts off. soccor shoes, knee high socks, short sport pants and a referee uniform....right.....nothing like a referee whatsoever. Maybe they should remove the blade in her hand too right? Since we're going for exact replicas of real life people/things.
• Kitty Kat Katarina reminds me of Halle Berry’s Catwoman, and that’s offensive on a whole new level. The only thing i fail to understand here is how its offensive on a whole new level? Since apparently all of these skins so far are super offensive already. I can agree that this skin may be offensive but at the same time i point it is a limited availability skin that was made for halloween. So go show me a girls costume during halloween that isnt sexually charged (a girl of age).

Not a single male champion has a stripper skin. If I missed something, please let me know. You could have a sexy fireman or something. It’s something exclusive the female champions. It’s just one of the ways that women are treated differently.

Next, we will talk about the base design of champions. Miss Fortune and Ahri are flirtatious, and while that isn’t really a problem, there are no guys that tease or flirt. The following are champions that are sexualized, not just in skins, but in their default splash art.

• Zyra is technically a plant, but she is using a human body as a vessel; one that she barely covers.Designers choice. maybe they shouldnt have made her human like then and we would have had another anivia exception?
• Syndra’s cleavage is the focal point of her splash art. opinion, and one that is greatly influenced by your thoughts on this situation. Many normal game players can look at that and not think that but you did for the sake of your argument.
• Akali’s rather large breasts are barely covered by those strips of cloth. It’s completely impractical for a serious warrior.Right...so lee sin shirtless? olaf with barely any armor and fur edged clothes
• LeBlanc is barely covered.
• Sivir is wearing the most pointless armor of all time. She isn’t protecting any vital points. olafs armor doesnt make much sense either, lee sin having no armor says hi.Gragas having no armor says hi. Zilean is wearing what looks like a robe, explain to me the battle readiness of a robe. twisted fates wearing regular clothing, his shirt is open and all he has is a bit of shoulder armor. Gangplank is wearing regular looking clothing and some leather gloves. Malzahars totally battle ready in that cloth clothing...you get my point
• Sona’s boobs. Need I say more?all right, fair enough...but why is this such a solid point? because everyone points it out as a joke.
• Ahri at least has lore to justify her being a flirt.I'm glad you didn't try to use ahri as a valid point because i would have destroyed you. Ahri is a succubus, a female demon/monster who takes the form of a human woman in order to seduce men. If she wasnt that sexually charged, she would a backwards stupid character. I could also argue over the fact that she is still a monster.
• Miss Fortune is hands down the most sexualized character in the game. In her new splash art it looks like he clothes don’t even cover her nipples. If we had more of a bird’s-eye-view, this game would probably have an AO titleAlright, new splash art is visually pleasing to say the least but lets take that and go back to the badass point as well. Smoking gun being an indicator to it just being used and killing someone with a badass looking exploding ship in the background. i dont know whats more bad ass looking then someone walking away from an explosion...
• Caitlyn should probably not shop in the children’s section and find something that fits.I'm quite sure they fit when they dont show her underwear without even looking moving down to look up said skirt. Short skirts are NOTHING NEW to girls nowadays and any girl complaining about that must have been in a coma during their schooling years.
• Fiora’s skin tight outfit accentuates her ass.so being an undefeated duelist is best done in baggy clothing right? This is a game, therefore arguments of that nature do not really fit in. Go find me a sword dueling pro dueling someone in baggy shorts and a shirt thats 2 times to large. News flash, it wont work too well.
• Evelynn is wearing lingerie. She is literally walking around the fields of justice in her underwear. I guess she is relying on her stealth. This is the only point in your entire argument that i will give to you completely. BUT if you can only manage to garner 1 whole undisputable point for your argument then you dont have a very good argument
• Lux used to be a counterexample. She used to be.This point practically invalidates your argument by itself. Only one skin even shows skin besides her face or hands and all of her skins besides that one has her armored or in some kind of battle gear. One of your more ignorant points out of the handful i've pointed out. These are the reason i am taking the time to invalidate your argument.
• Morgana gets thinner and thinner, and her breasts get bigger and bigger. She is also wearing a bra to battle. Smart. she has her splash art and 1 sin that looks that way. the rest of her skins she is covered or armored and those outnumber the skins that are wrong in some way........and lee sin is shirtless, great idea right? your turn
• Cassiopeia may not be human from the waist down, but if you are arguing that that disqualifies her, then you are arguing that mermaids are not a sexual fantasy to millions. and tentacles are a sexual fantasy to people as well as animal porn, how is that a valid point to include cassiopeia? Shes still not fully human. Dr. mundo is fully human and just "deformed" i suppose would be the best term to describe that. Hes just deformed and overly muscular yet you throw him in the anomalies section why? Maybe because you fail to see the argument from any point but your own?
• Katarina screams ***. She has three stripper skins, but the default skin isn’t any less sexualized.I'm quite sure you already made a point about katarina here somewhere but i'll humor you yet again. I will assume you are speaking of mercenary, high command, and sandstorm and i will not be addressing non available skins since i already addressed one of those and i do not feel as if limited availability skins are subject to an argument of this nature since they are mostly take out of context and made for a special reason in ways revolving around the special time. e.g. santa gragas. 1. mercenary- this is the worst of the three yet at the same time i can still point out the darkness, fearful look/nature about her and the spiked armor she has. 2. High command- a Rock iron kind of stance that shows her strength and superiority, armored and ready to fight. 3. Sandstorm- made to resemble a middle eastern belly dancer. If you have a problem with this skin then you have a problem with belly dancers themselves.
• Nidalee kind of has an excuse, since she is basically She-Tarzan.Actually gets it..too bad you downplayed it in favor of your own point.
• Janna even makes a phone *** reference, solidifying the portrayal of women as adult entertainment workers. So you are going after a joke? you have sunk quite low for valid arguments. A reference to something is by no means a valid argument for oversexualizing females in this game.
• Soraka’s old art was all about the side boob. Her new art is better, but still very sexy.Must be easy to make points like these if you make that statement. Based off of other points you have tried to make i can say this: 1. she is mostly covered, her breasts not being visible at all and you can only see part of her thighs before they turn into HOOFS. 2. she is a support so dont try and make that old battle ready kinda statement.
• Sejuani seems to be immune to the cold. In fact, everyone from Freljord seems to be.i think we can agree that if they were drawn according to weather climates in the fictional lands that they live in there would be a lot of limitations for the skins they could release on a handful of champions and that doesn't sound very practical or fun at all, does it?
• Ashe is better than Sejuani, at least.is this a joke hidden in your thread about sejuani being bad? im not quite sure but i kinda chuckled at it... If not i already addressed the weather situation in my statement above.
• Varus. The only male champion that makes the list. More on why, later.

So here are the female champions that are not sexualized (much):

• Karma is great. Her Sun Goddess skin is culturally appropriate, so I don’t have any issues.
• Leona is wearing high heels to battle and her armor accentuates her figure a bit too much. Compare her to armored champions like Garen, Taric, Darius, ect. There is a noticeable difference. Still, Leona gets a passing grade.
• Kayle is perhaps the best portrayed female. Her armor is actually practical. No complaints.
• Shyvana is pretty well done. None of her skins really do her an injustice.
• Irelia is acceptable, in my opinion. Her Frostblade skin showcases her ass a little much, though. I really like that Aviator Irelia looks like a real pilot, and not a stripper.
• Diana’s default look is fantastic. I am not thrilled about her Dark Valkyrie skin.

So there are six female champions that aren’t overtly sexualized, and 22 that are (Battle Bunny Riven and Heartseeker Vayne did them in). Over 78% of the adult human female champions are sexualized. That number is pretty freakin’ high.


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Aerophobia

Senior Member

10-06-2012

I had to split this into two parts since it was over 30k characters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
The following are male champions that people use as examples of sexualized men. They may show skin, but being shirtless means nothing when they are morbidly obese or freakishly muscular. Female body builders are nasty. Male body builders are also nasty.
opinion, opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion. too many opinions in your arguments. i know PLENTY of girls who are attracted to muscular guys. You stating that female and male bodybuilders are disgusting holds no value in your argument and does nothing but make your argument look bad when inserting opinions like that.
• Gragas. Everyone uses him as a joke example, but it’s frustrating for those of us trying to have a real conversation.Some people have a fetish (or sexual fantasy as you said earlier in a different point) for "larger sized" people.You stated earlier speaking about cassiopeia and people having a sexual fantasy for mermaids. So now i can easily turn your *joke* argument into a valid one easily. People have fetishes for tons of different things..
• Tryndamere is built like a rhino. I’m tempted to move him to the anthropomorphic animals list. since its quite awkward to look at his regular skin to tell how built he is i can point out viking tryndamere. IMO he doesn't look nearly as built as olaf is or some other muscular champions. E.g. yorick( if you dont count him, then look at his pentakill skin where he is drawn more clearly human like and he is most definitely ripped), Garen (have you seen the size of his hands and arms?????), pentakill Mordekaiser (clearly showing his human form there in that look and definitely showing off how godly strong he is.) I think i've made it quite clear that you are overlooking other champions but i can continue with the list if you'd like to challenge me.
• Pentakill Olaf is not going to turn anyone on. He still caters to straight guys’ tastes.alright, fair enough. he is quite muscular! BUT as i stated before there are people with different sexual fantasies or fetishes. AS well as you overlooking plenty of champions that are muscular in your point above. Both my points diminishing the impact of this statement here....
• Lee Sin is shirtless, and not hideously muscular. But his shirtlessness is more about him being a martial artist. It serves a practical function. It’s not about being seductive.since when the heck has being shirtless been a requirement for doing martial arts????This is really one of the most ignorant points you made and i have ever heard as an argument on this topic. Another point that i feel you downplayed only in favor of your own side.
• Ruthless Pantheon isn’t contorting his body in unnatural ways to show off his body. His physique is secondary to his battle prowess. There is nothing about this skin that suggests the artist wanted to make him look sexy, even if he isn’t wearing much. To me, it’s the same as Sun Goddess Karma. It’s not about *** appeal. Maybe because its not something that is pleasing to you in that way. Heck this is another point for disproving your tryndamere statement 2 points above. Pantheon looks far more muscular then tryndamere does. Also....this skin actually shows nipples and mostly all of his body except for his signature helmet.He's pretty much nude in this picture and you ignore it like it means nothing? This is yet again another point you downplayed in favor of your own side.
• Twisted Fate is suave, but his charm has nothing to do with his body, and more to do with his style.Tango twisted fate, The TANGO is known for being the dance of love and passion. If a suave ladies man looking character with a tango dancer skin isn't considered sexual then there is no convincing you and you are ignorantly blinded by your own bias.
• Ezreal has boyish good looks, and he is a favorite amongst players who are attracted to males. But being attractive and being a sexual object is not the same thing. If it were, I’d have to change the verdict on all six of the female champions that have a passing grade.all you are doing is making a statement about ezreals looks....soooo no counterpoint here

If you don’t agree with me, or you think I missed a champion or skin that should have made the list, let me know. I’m open to discussion. In fact, that's the entire reason I am posting this. I want this to turn into a discussion.

Now, Varus made the sexy list because he has an attractive physique, and his nakedness doesn’t seem to serve any apparent function other than fanservice. Still, he is the only example I could find that meets these requirements. That is one male champion out of 28. That means 3.5% of male champions are sexualized, and 78.5% of female champions are sexualized. How can you tell me that there is no disparity? That everything is fine. How can you deny the fact that women are treated differently?Varus is shirtless and half non human. I'm confused as to how hes the one person to make your sexualized male example. Ruthless pantheon is wearing what looks like a speedo, is mostly naked and is definitely the closest thing to pure nude in this game yet you disregard it and shrug it off like nothing. Also...i can easily make that point that hes not fully human and that he should be DQ'd

Moving on, let’s talk about body types. I won’t devote too much time to this, because there isn’t much to say, but when you look at the guys, you have skinny Shaco, bulky Tryndamere, obese Gragas, Athletic Talon, and everything inbetween. Female champions range from super model thin to anorexic supermodel. You can see Morgana’s rib cage. There really is only one body type that gets recycled with every female champion. Bust sizes may vary from moderately large and “you’ve got to be kidding me,” but the frame of the ladies is indistinguishable.

Next, I want to talk about apparent age of champions. The men enjoy a huge range; you have youthful Ezreal, who could pass for a teenager, to Zilean, who is ancient. Here are the champions that look middle aged or older:

• Darius is graying and wrinkles are forming. He looks like he is in his mid 40’s.
• Draven can’t be much younger. Early 40’s.
• Gangplank’s beard makes it hard to see his face, but he looks like he is at least late 30’s. His skins can age him quite a bit.
• Gragas can be anywhere between 30 and 50. It’s hard to tell.
• Graves looks at least 45. Jailbreak Graves looks even older.
• Ryze is tough to place, because he is blue, but if Tribal Ryze is his human form, dude looks 50+.
• Shaco looks like a creeper. The makeup makes him impossible to place, but his bone structure suggests that he is well past young-adulthood.
• Singed is definitely past his prime.
• Swain doesn’t look a day younger than 50.
• Tryndamere is at least 40.
• Udyr is certainly in his 50’s.
• Viktor’s prototype skin shows that he is graying.
• Zilean is a geezer. For someone with time powers, he makes no attempt to reverse his age.
These are mostly opinions on how old they are. They were most likely not designed with a set age in their mind. Skins are also different interpretations of the original design of a champion which kind of removes them from being used as an argument. People suggest princess karthus...i mean come on. Skins for champions change looks of champions entirely sometimes. Also, diana looks mid 30s at least to me. Fiora definitely looks mid 30's to me.Imperial lux looks LATE 30's to me. It's all a matter of a person's opinions here at this point.

Absent from this list is every single female champion. Diana looks the oldest, at maybe early 30’s. This is pretty indisputable proof that Riot has different design philosophies for male and female champions. I’m not asking Riot to make an ugly female champion just for the sake of making her ugly. I just don’t understand why every female champion has to be young, thin, and attractive, but they aren’t afraid to deviate from that mold when they are making a male champion. I tell you, I would absolutely love a Baba Yaga inspired champion. Ursula and Maleficent is extremely popular as far as Disney villains go, so it’s not like older ladies, or even fat ladies don’t have any appeal.
I provided an argument which makes it not so indisputable i believe. It may not be as strong as what you stated about the male characters but i can definitely prove that its not as bias as you say it is.

One random solo point that i would like to make relating to this topic is trundle. I've seen a few threads in my days on GD and ive read a few riot posts that were made about trundle and thats what i have to say here. When people ask for more trundle skins they come with the valid response of him being the only truly repugnant champion in the league. He is the only champion in the league that was made ugly for the sake of being ugly. He is in fact an ugly troll and that gets in the way of making news skins and looks for him. My main point here is this: The more visually appealing the champion is the more it is is less restricted. They don't have problems making skins for catilyn for example because all they need is the good idea and they can somehow fit a cute outfit onto her and release an eye appealing skin for the masses.

So Riot, what say you? I worked hard on this because I believe in you as a company. I’m really hoping this doesn’t go ignored.
One random solo point that i would like to make relating to this topic is trundle. I've seen a few threads in my days on GD and ive read a few riot posts that were made about trundle and thats what i have to say here. When people ask for more trundle skins they come with the valid response of him being the only truly repugnant champion in the league. He is the only champion in the league that was made ugly for the sake of being ugly. He is in fact an ugly troll and that gets in the way of making news skins and looks for him. My main point here is this: The more visually appealing the champion is the more it is is less restricted. They don't have problems making skins for catilyn for example because all they need is the good idea and they can somehow fit a cute outfit onto her and release an eye appealing skin for the masses.

Thats all i have to say here. Remember that i am not supporting the other side of the OP posts and am not specifically arguing against the main point that original post made. I am only standing on the top of the fence looking over to both sides to gain the best position in said argument.


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MTaur

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
Edit: Agrias from Final Fantasy Tactics is pictured in that link. She is another great example of a badass female champion that gets fans for being badass.
Well, sort of. Her stats fall off after half an act. Then Orlandu comes along and does 4x as many things 5x as well. :-P

y u break game, Square?