@Riot A serious discussion about gender. Please read

First Riot Post
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Z3ratu1

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Posting again with a legit question to the OP: What makes Varus "pass the fanservice test" while PK Brolaf and Trynd fail it?


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Grimwolff

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
^^^^ The OP's point was both the lack of parity and the overabundance of sexualized women.



If you're interacting with other real people, you should care. You don't walk up to random people in the street and harass them for their gender or whatever else (and if you actually do, well you're simply scum). What makes it okay to treat male as the default? I'm a man and I do not make fun of people in games or bust them up, so your statement that that is how men are is clearly false.



Who are you to presume other people's motivations? Also, just because you aren't annoyed by something doesn't mean others aren't or shouldn't be. And if gender shouldn't have an effect on anything, then why are women harassed for saying they are women? "Act like a male or get harassed" is not gender having no bearing on anything.
Let's think about this in another way, politics. I full heartedly believe is Barack Obama was a woman he would not have not become president. Even if he was the exact same human being but female, he would not have won. Why? Because politics are dominated by men.

Let's think about it in another way, sports. Let's say Tom Brady was a woman. Now the girl Tom Brady is an exact equal to Tom Brady the man as a player, but there is no way in hell she will be playing in the NFL.

Now I'm not saying I agree with any of this and that this is how society should be, but the fact remains that it is. Video Games are the exact same way. The only difference here is the people who play video games are all around more immature than people in politics and football.

Just think of it from an opposite standpoint, if a guy wants to be a cheerleader he is made fun of because it's something meant for only girls (as perceived by society).


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Gunxlinger

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperialGoddess View Post
I am a female who plays every single day. My League name is pretty straight forward and I have never encountered any issues with other people about it. I have not once ever been insulted for being a "girl." I can understand where your coming from, but I don't care how Riot designs the female champs. I like to have my female champs all confident and sexy.
Marry me


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chumbler

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimwolff View Post
Let's think about this in another way, politics. I full heartedly believe is Barack Obama was a woman he would not have not become president. Even if he was the exact same human being but female, he would not have won. Why? Because politics are dominated by men.

Let's think about it in another way, sports. Let's say Tom Brady was a woman. Now the girl Tom Brady is an exact equal to Tom Brady the man as a player, but there is no way in hell she will be playing in the NFL.

Now I'm not saying I agree with any of this and that this is how society should be, but the fact remains that it is. Video Games are the exact same way. The only difference here is the people who play video games are all around more immature than people in politics and football.

Just think of it from an opposite standpoint, if a guy wants to be a cheerleader he is made fun of because it's something meant for only girls (as perceived by society).
If everybody just threw up their hands and said "Well, that's just how things are" nothing would ever progress anywhere. Boys being mocked for wanting to be cheerleaders is a bad thing that should be changed. Women being harassed for having the gall to announce their gender in the boys' club of video gaming is a bad thing that should be changed. How do you change it? You make it clear that such conduct is unacceptable. You don't promote trivialization of women. You don't treat women as objects or tools rather than people. You also don't treat or depict men as all being stupid brutes incapable of thinking with anything other than their *****, valuable only for their physical strength and incapable of ever being something that others would find sexy.

If something is bad, you change it. You don't just sit back and accept it.


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L2 Sentinel

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3ratu1 View Post
Posting again with a legit question to the OP: What makes Varus "pass the fanservice test" while PK Brolaf and Trynd fail it?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...kki_Fuller.jpg

What makes Megan Fox attractive and Nikki Fuller not?


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Izacer

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

+1 Read it all, agree with all of it.


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Xengre

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
The skins segment was listing all the stripper skins. The statement I was trying to make wasn't "There should never be any stripper skins ever!!" It was posing the question "Why is the exclusive to women?" In real life, there are male strippers. Women see those Male strippers. Magic Mike didn't bomb at the box office. Chippendales is a popular show in Vegas. Sexy Nurse is a fetish, you say? Well so is Sexy Fireman. That's why they keep making those calendars...
Nurse Akali, Officer Caitlyn, and Bunnygirl Riven are the only three "stripper" skins out of that entire list. The rest simply do not fit that category. Nurses are a popular fetish but to be frank, it fits her cosplay attitude so I would in fact not say it is a stripper skin so much as her cosplaying. She is the only champ, unless I am horribly mistaken, that has a legitimate cosplay theme going on. Officer Caitlyn I have no arguement for outside of it being a popular fetish/niche. Bunnygirl Riven... I dare you to claim this is Riot being sexist. This topic was one of the more popular threads for a long period of time that eventually lead to Riot giving in and making it. It is not Riot's original creation.

I also notice that you completely side stepped any real discussion concerning my points and no one else bothered to reply and instead simply downvoted because they are showing personal bias and inability to counter discuss. It is because of these things that such topics almost never go anywhere.

As to male strippers... I don't know squat about them or female strippers (action flicks in this case), personally, outside of comedy movies in which they are always so over the top that as far as I am aware Riot could never fill that fetish. Same would likely apply to female strippers if they did not tone it down to effectively cosplaying.


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Syrilic

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Probably one of the best posts I've seen in ages. What saddens me is the two kinds of people you'll normally see in the thread, those that dismiss what you say with a patronizing comment (see first response's "cute"). It's very sad to see the lack of intelligence needed to even appreciate a well thought of post even if you disagree with it. Second, the ones who believe you make a valid point, but then say how it shouldn't be talked about or point out how females have it simpler or "some _____" do this and therefore this shouldn't be addressed.

You actually see the same type of things with racism, but let's not get too carried away.

While I acknowledge that Phreak is unable to say or comment on things such as the sexism in League (particularly in the community), on such a grand scale at an event. I think a clearer stance needs to be made. The best part of the OP is the fact that it is acknowledged that the fact that there are no male champions to serve as eye candy is not a point. I was so excited to play Zyra from her skills, she sounded so unique and creative and then I saw the splash art, it was hilarious. (It was noted that the splash art for Zyra gave off the wrong message about the champion later on).

I enjoy a variety of champions, mostly kogmaw, but if I am playing Graves, Kog, Leona, Anivia, or Lee Sin, I feel that I am playing a champion. But certain champions don't feel like champions. I don't feel it's a stretch to say most of these are female humanoid champions that just do not feel like champions.

I also admit, out of anything in this case I've gone through, the Riot responses on this topic (or lack thereof) are abysmal. And this is someone who remembers The Beard. (lol). It was mentioned before Morello's responses to the questioning, and I too found it to be so lacking. It is the same kind of dismissal you see on the forums, thankfully without patronizing remarks, but a complete dismissal because of Lulu or champions as such.

Now, my issue is less the treatment of female champions as opposed to the treatment of females online in general (look through this thread, any thread on the topic, or talk to female gamers). But let me propose this to any champion designer or artist. I like sexy, visually appealing champions. But my issue is when it becomes fetished. I can name very few people who are attracted primarily to males who enjoy things such as Pantheon or Graves in the same way those who are attracted primarily to females enjoy Ahri and Zyra. Now I think Graves looks badass, and from that I think he is a very well designed champion who fits his persona great. But Miss Fortune... that goes from fitting a persona (I couldn't name it without much thought, unlike how I could for Ashe or Urgot). To being overtly fetishized. I like champions that I find visually appealing, or to a huge extent not so much (Urgot the best), but I can't take certain champions seriously due to the amount they are fetishized.

If I made a story with a variety of people who were both Black and White. And a good 90%+ of the black people were uneducated, brutish, and rude with maybe a couple who were children and a couple more who were well educated and engaging characters. And my white characters were all generally the opposite (although to count the male humanoid champions in league that are fetishized is not going to produce as many). I would not say "well character x is educated and black, so your argument is invalid". I would either have to justify it in myself as necessary for some reason (let's pretend I am not writing a satire), or be find in my racism and unable to even begin to process that I may be racist at all. I sincerely hope, to any Rioters, that at the very least you are aware of the issue of the fetishization of a large amount of female, humanoid champions, even if you are not able to say it publicly so (for any kind of negative impact on career, relations, or how the community sees you). I know many cases where that is the case, but I will say it saddens me so the very silence over the issue except the few cases where someone says a slight thing in favour (e.g. I believe it was Ironstylus saying that he was a feminist, but would not elaborate [although it was useless to do so in that thread]).


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Cryswar

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauhel View Post
I cannot possibly know everything Rioters have ever said on the subject. I can only talk about my own experiences in dealing with red posts. I never had the pleasure of engaging IronStylus in conversation. You missed the point of my post entirely if you think I am trying to make Riot look bad.

Your tone is dismissive and insulting. Pretty much what I was expecting my first response to be, sadly.
Dismissive and insulting because you're an idiot, yes.

Guilty as charged!


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Grimwolff

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
If everybody just threw up their hands and said "Well, that's just how things are" nothing would ever progress anywhere. Boys being mocked for wanting to be cheerleaders is a bad thing that should be changed. Women being harassed for having the gall to announce their gender in the boys' club of video gaming is a bad thing that should be changed. How do you change it? You make it clear that such conduct is unacceptable. You don't promote trivialization of women. You don't treat women as objects or tools rather than people. You also don't treat or depict men as all being stupid brutes incapable of thinking with anything other than their *****.

If something is bad, you change it. You don't just sit back and accept it.
Do you honestly think you can convince anonymous people on the internet to "change" the way they act? I mean the way you're talking you want Riot to implement a Bill of Rights or something for League of Legends?

See now you're generalizing, because in my experience playing games over my lifetime I've seen a lot more gamers who could care less about if someone is a woman than actually do care. You're in the group of people who seem to care a lot more, as you are bringing it into the spotlight constantly. PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE REASON WOMEN GET HARASSED IN VIDEO GAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE.