Level Points & Money Before Minions Spawn

First Riot Post
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David Hume

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I dunno about skill points, it seems too special case to only do it for the first part of the game and we wouldn't want to do it for the whole game.

For items though, I am in favor of allowing players to undo purchases/sales/combines that they make by mistake throughout the game if we can cover off the abuse cases.
Most champions, I take Q first. That's not personal preference; the champ developers have done a very good job putting most champs' bread-and-butter skill on Q. It's a great design idiom; it makes muscle memory work for the player more often than not and makes it easier to grok new champs,

However, if you accidentally take Q first on jungle Amumu you will cost your team the game. Ten people have too much invested in a League game to let one misclick at the start decide it.

Also, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to allow it the whole game? You already have a mechanism for detecting "engaging in combat," and that alone would prevent abuse for everything except stuff like Taric's armor aura (he could give armor to someone in combat) and Janna's passive speed boost. It would take a bit of design and programming, but isn't it the function of programmers to solve hard problems once so everyone else doesn't suffer for it?

Most common case I wish I could return a point later in the game - by level 4 as Soraka, I need a point in Starcall. Usually I take it at two or three, but it's highly variable depending on how the lane is going. I'll hit level 4, notice that Starcall is still grayed out, and put a point in it. Then I realize I had already done that - the skill was grayed out because nothing was in range - and now I can't hit Astral Blessing Lv. 3 before level 6.

[Aside: we need better user interface around skills. Skills that haven't been learned still show as level 1 (and the number is weirdly to the left of the brackets), there's no visual distinction between a skill that can't be cast for targeting reasons and a skill that hasn't been learned. Skills like Starcall and Tantrum don't distinguish between 'enemy in range' and 'enemy champion in range', and spells that are on cooldown don't indicate whether or not you'll have the mana to cast them when they come off. Every stayed in a fight because your game-changing ult had 3s left on cooldown, only to discover that you don't have the mana for it? Toggle skills changes the icon state slightly, but in the heat of a teamfight it's not fast enough to know instantly whether I've mashed Despair two times or three times.]


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Corngina

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Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Incognito View Post
I wish there was a way that you could reset your lvl points and $ before the minions have spawned. All of us have done it...you accidentally buy the wrong item or level up the wrong ability. I think if you're in the pool before minions spawn, you should be able to reset your level points and/or sell everything back for the full price. ONLY BEFORE MINIONS SPAWN.
I think I've messed this up maybe 2x in 700 games. The money part, that is.


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatNinjaGuy View Post
Accidentally bought boots instead of regrowth on Mundo...
I don't get it


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Sereg Anfaug

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Senior Member

10-02-2012

I don't see any reason for a player to be in their base, having never left, after 1:30. If they are, they should be flagged for AFK, not given leniency with item and skill levelup resets. Personally, I'm out of my base within ten seconds of the game start.


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boourns

UI Designer

10-02-2012
2 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hume View Post
Most champions, I take Q first. That's not personal preference; the champ developers have done a very good job putting most champs' bread-and-butter skill on Q. It's a great design idiom; it makes muscle memory work for the player more often than not and makes it easier to grok new champs,

However, if you accidentally take Q first on jungle Amumu you will cost your team the game. Ten people have too much invested in a League game to let one misclick at the start decide it.

Also, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to allow it the whole game? You already have a mechanism for detecting "engaging in combat," and that alone would prevent abuse for everything except stuff like Taric's armor aura (he could give armor to someone in combat) and Janna's passive speed boost. It would take a bit of design and programming, but isn't it the function of programmers to solve hard problems once so everyone else doesn't suffer for it?

Most common case I wish I could return a point later in the game - by level 4 as Soraka, I need a point in Starcall. Usually I take it at two or three, but it's highly variable depending on how the lane is going. I'll hit level 4, notice that Starcall is still grayed out, and put a point in it. Then I realize I had already done that - the skill was grayed out because nothing was in range - and now I can't hit Astral Blessing Lv. 3 before level 6.

[Aside: we need better user interface around skills. Skills that haven't been learned still show as level 1 (and the number is weirdly to the left of the brackets), there's no visual distinction between a skill that can't be cast for targeting reasons and a skill that hasn't been learned. Skills like Starcall and Tantrum don't distinguish between 'enemy in range' and 'enemy champion in range', and spells that are on cooldown don't indicate whether or not you'll have the mana to cast them when they come off. Every stayed in a fight because your game-changing ult had 3s left on cooldown, only to discover that you don't have the mana for it? Toggle skills changes the icon state slightly, but in the heat of a teamfight it's not fast enough to know instantly whether I've mashed Despair two times or three times.]
Actually with the new HUD we are working on we will show pips to tell you how many points you've put into a skill. That should make situations like starcall more obvious.

You other suggestions are interesting. It's hard to communicate all that and still make it learnable/discoverable, but I agree we could give you some more information about spells. I think in the situations you talk about, making the states more verbose doesn't necessarily help. I would tend towards presenting more of that information in game-space on-demand because that's where people are generally looking. It's a tough problem though because you don't want to obscure the action unnecessarily.


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boourns

UI Designer

10-02-2012
3 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
What abuse cases could exist?
Sell all your stuff mid game, but a deathcap, karthus ult, undo

Buy needlessly large rod. Ashe ult a fight. undo. Get BF sword instead.

There are tons of edge cases that could happen that I can't even think of. Plenty of devilishly inventive people play our game.


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boourns

UI Designer

10-02-2012
4 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExaltedVanguard View Post
Simply allow players to sell an item at its full cost provided that:

If it is before 1:30 and the player has not been hit by an enemy champion or turret, hit anything with an ability/attack, or used a summoner spell.

After 1:30, items can be sold at full price provided the player has not left the base (inhibitor turrets), and have not been hit by an enemy champion or turret, hit anything with an ability/attack, or used a summoner spell.

"Hit by an enemy champion," clause does not apply if you have not left the base pad. You just know some poor sap would get hit by ezreal as they miss-clicked.

Refunded items are broken down into what they were previously, if it was a combination item.

Refunding items also causes the player to lose any gold generated by them (philosopher's stone).

That should solve all the issues without allowing any abuse. It would be very hard to walk past your inhib turret before realizing you messed up.
I think it's useful enough to undo a mistake in the shop throughout the game. I would not confine it to the start of the game.


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Sageoffire

Senior Member

10-02-2012

Any sort of abuse can be easily stoped

you buy an item, you can return that item until:
1) you use an ability
2) you take or receive damage
3) you leave the fountain.

as far as skill points go, i dont think you should be able to undo them.


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soupkitchen101

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Member

10-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
Or, since you have 1:30 before they spawn, simply take your time with your purchases and skill point distributon.
I want you to know I logged in just to down vote you. Of course thats the amount of time you have, but in any game with decent players (or higher elo games) You have about 5 seconds to purchase and get into the jungle to defend or steal buffs. You really have no time in reality.


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MisterTitanic

Member

10-02-2012

make it so that you can't use spells and abilities in the fountain. and you're locked out from selling stuff after leaving the fountain.

abuse case solved.