Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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iainB85

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Seriously, I am seeing more people want support than jungle these days, and the reason is obvious in my mind: the most sure fire way to win now is just to make jungle another support.

There's no room assassin/damage dealing type junglers with the current design. The jungle just doesn't provide enough farm compared to lane anymore, and you can't rely on getting lots of kills from ganks early if the enemy team plays smart and/or your team doesn't.

That's also if you even get to clear your own jungle. With how easy the small camps are now, other lanes pretty much demand half your camps to get an edge over their enemy laner... and why shouldn't they, it's a great tactic for them... long as you aren't the poor jungler!

So what does that devolve the jungle into? A tanky support with good initiate and CC. The best jungle picks by far these days are champs like Amumu, Nautilius, Malphite, etc... who can win team fights without any gold at all due to their kits.

I really hope Riot has some plans for jungle in season 3, because I am sure I am not the only one who is flat out sick of this design.

FYI: As support running GP5 runes and building dual GP5 I usually end up with more gold at the end of the game than our jungle, even if they played well and had similar presence (kills/assists)... that's how little the jungle is currently worth... further strengthening my metaphor as jungle the secondary support.

edit: Riot has responded! Indeed it is on their radar, and there are some significant changes coming up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
We've actually been working on changes for the jungle in anticipation for Season 3 and though I can't really give all the details here because we are still iterating, I'd like to give you guys some insights into what's going on.

There are a multitude of issues we're tackling and they are very much intertwined. The current dominant jungle strategy (GP10 Support / Tanks) is fairly stagnant and the overall current jungle playstyle in many cases severely limits potential strategy and choices in other lanes/roles as well.

One large problem is that efficient farming of the jungle has very little pay off compared to constantly applying lane pressure by camping / ganking. Overall junglers severely lack in gold unless they successfully gank and snowball the game from the get-go and/or opt for a GP10 strategy.

The approach we're currently taking is to significantly increase the rewards of jungle camps over time (junglers already have a huge impact on the early game). To go along with this though, we are buffing jungle camps back up to actually be more threatening while simultaneously offering new / improved item paths that allow players to specialize in the jungle. Overall we want junglers to be rewarded for building combat stats rather than always being forced to build gold generation items.

This is not the only thing we're changing in the jungle for next season, but these types of things are definitely on our radar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Well a lot of the directional changes we're making for Season 3 are to make sure there are niches for the various jungle types.

For example, the nerfing of the jungle camps' damage really left no room for "safe" junglers such as Warwick since sustain was no longer a thing. Everyone can just clear with Boots + Health Pots and apply pressure to lanes.

When we do these changes for Season 3, there may be some junglers who are simply too strong in too many categories and we'll have to address that in the context of the new jungle. Overall though, we're looking to make sure there's a reason to bring X jungler over Y jungler depending on the situation.


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Gakapo

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Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Seriously, I am seeing more people want jungle than support these days, and the reason is obvious in my mind: the most sure fire way to win now is just to make jungle another support.

There's no room assassin/damage dealing type junglers with the current design. The jungle just doesn't provide enough farm compared to lane anymore, and you can't rely on getting lots of kills from ganks early if the enemy team plays smart and/or your team doesn't.

So what does that devolve the jungle into? A tanky support with good initiate and CC. The best jungle picks by far these days are champs like Amumu, Nautilius, Malphite, etc... who can win team fights without any gold at all due to their kits.

I really hope Riot has some plans for jungle in season 3, because I am sure I am not the only one who is flat out sick of this design.
Looks at noc udyr shryvana shaco rengar khazix diana jayce darius

Yeah tanky support with good initiation....


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Doom Maggot

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gakapo View Post
Looks at noc udyr shryvana shaco rengar khazix diana jayce darius

Yeah tanky support with good initiation....
Half of those aren't played as junglers often.


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daluvin

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gakapo View Post
Looks at noc udyr shryvana shaco rengar khazix diana jayce darius

Yeah tanky support with good initiation....
was that sarcasm or did you just accidentally lump shaco in there?

edit: cuse noc udyr shyv reng (almost kha) diana jayce and darius are all tanky with good initiation.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gakapo View Post
Looks at noc udyr shryvana shaco rengar khazix diana jayce darius

Yeah tanky support with good initiation....
Hmmm, really?

Nocturne -- Usually build very tanky, great initiate with his ultimate / blind.

Udyr -- Usually build very tanky, good initiator with fast MS and on hit stun if he catches anyone

Shyvanna -- Good exception, only viable due to extremely fast clear time and counter jungling potential.

Shaco -- Not picked that much anymore, not that great of a pick imo.

Regnar -- Banned 90% of the time, just an OP champ atm.

Kha'Xiz -- Have yet to see a jungle Kha'Zix do well, and I watched Rain Main play him earlier today. Even if he gets a few early kills, he falls off in usefulness team fights compared to the champions I mentioned.

Diana -- Not a great jungle.

Jayce -- Not a great jungle.

Darius -- Not that great at jungle, and has just a broken kit to begin with. What's up build full tank, get massive damage, and refresh on kill true damage ult. Great design!

edit: When I say "not a great jungle" I don't mean they can't clear jungle or aren't viable... I just mean compared to the tanky initiators I have mentioned you are clearly gimping your team by picking them.


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iSe7eNz

Recruiter

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Hmmm, really?

Nocturne -- Usually build very tanky, great initiate with his ultimate / blind.

Udyr -- Usually build very tanky, good initiator with fast MS and on hit stun if he catches anyone

Shyvanna -- Good exception, only viable due to extremely fast clear time and counter jungling potential.

Shaco -- Not picked that much anymore, not that great of a pick imo.

Regnar -- Banned 90% of the time, just an OP champ atm.

Kha'Xiz -- Have yet to see a jungle Kha'Zix do well, and I watched Rain Main play him earlier today. Even if he gets a few early kills, he falls off in usefulness team fights compared to the champions I mentioned.

Diana -- Not a great jungle.

Jayce -- Not a great jungle.

Darius -- Not that great at jungle, and has just a broken kit to begin with. What's up build full tank, get massive damage, and refresh on kill true damage ult. Great design!
You kidding me? Shyvana's probably THE tankiest out of all those (okay Udyr might usually be tankier, but that's it.). She's also really the only one who can initiate other than Noc.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSe7eNz View Post
You kidding me? Shyvana's probably THE tankiest out of all those (okay Udyr might usually be tankier, but that's it.). She's also really the only one who can initiate other than Noc.
I didn't say she wasn't tanky, I meant that she was an exception as she's a decent jungle with almost no CC (the ultimate dragon barely counts as CC).


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Shiralune

Senior Member

10-01-2012

The dude's point is those he listed aren't "tanky supports".


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MA Carrots

Senior Member

10-01-2012

People on my teams that called jungle always suck at it T.T


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Genomax

Senior Member

10-01-2012

One of the reasons why a lot of 'non-tank' junglers are built tanky is simply because jungling is a low paying job, and Aegis happens to be one of the most gold-efficient items in the game. Hence the reason why they buy it, and why they end up being kind of tanky.