Champions Alignment

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Geokhan

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Senior Member

09-25-2012

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Originally Posted by Ask Talon View Post
Lawful means that he follows something, be it the law or a moral code of some sort. He's a mercenary, so most likely he's going to be True Neutral or Neutral Evil.
Science! There is a scientists code. It ain't pretty, but it does exist. Scientisits need it to ensure that work is done proper. If you can't follow a method in your research, then the others will blacklist you.


Also, I would say Riven is some kind of good...likely chaotic.


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Geokhan

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09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanock View Post
I haven't read all of the lore, only the profiles, but here's my take on some characters.

From the character profile, Kayle is from the faction that "proclaimed themselves as beings of perfect order and justice, fighting to unite the world under their law and strong central governance," while Morgana opposes those "who would sacrifice individuality and freedom for the illusion of efficiency and safety."

From this, I tend to think of Kayle as leaning towards evil. Much of the evil done in this world comes from people who, believing themselves right, try to force others to do things their way in the name of some possibly well-intentioned yet f*'d up self-aggrandized sense of justice or order. Think crusaders and conquistadors, jihadists, communists, socialists, and imperialists, etc.

Morgana opposing this and taking the fall for standing on principle, in my view, makes her at least neutral, if not good.

Similar story between Leona and Diana. Light and dark are stereotypically good and evil respectively, but how can a faction be good, that denies truth and persecutes detractors of dogmatic falsehood? Not that Diana is good either, but she was at first and her downfall is a direct reaction to evil acts of the Iron Solari.

I don't know that characters like Lulu, Fiora, Wukong, Sona, and others are good. Maybe they are on the "good" side, but they themselves have no good cause - they fight for the sake of fighting. They could have just as easily ended up on an "evil" side like Fizz, if circumstances had been different.

I guess I tend to consider the neutral/good people those who only use violence to defend themselves and those who wish to live freely and peacefully, while the evil ones are those who try to control or initiate force or violence upon others for any other reason.
Couple of points here. Firstly, that is well thought out and I respect your opinion, I would like to submit some counter points to point out what I see as flaws in your logic.

Kayle is Lawful good. To an Extreme, yes. Her intentions are good and I also cannot see anyone be a healer who isn't good. Healing implies caring. Take the Drow, a priestess won't waste her time healing an ally. She doesn't care about anyone but Lolth and really only cares about the power Lolth gives her at that. She is Lawful Evil. Kayle heals, thus Lawful good. She is a Paladin of her people. Heavy armor...check. Healing Magic...check. Sense of justice...check. If you are a paladin you are lawful good. There are Blackknights out there, but the lack of healing does makes them evil knights who happen to be religious.

Morgana may have good intentions at first, but she enjoys butchering her sister. She has Flat out said it. She also practices magic that is evil. Soul siphon. That is not a good magic. Draining the life force of someone is not the characteristic of a good character. Thus I question her motives. Is she really fighting for freedom of others...or herself?

Don't say Leona is evil because of her superiors. here has been no mention of Leona's relationship to Diana in the Lore I have seen, thus I could see Leona feeling torn on the issue. I see Leona as a Lawful good as she is a paladin of the Sun. LITERALLY. Diana is a Paladin of the Moon, but she is vengeful. Thus I lean more towards Neutral.

Evil is caring about yourself over others to the point of letting people die because you don't see it as profitable.
Good is placing others before yourself.
Neutral is a strong balance. You care about yourself, but you are willing to do some good actions without asking for payment.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Props for attempting this! I would suggest throwing in the Lawful/Chaotic axis as well since it allows for added nuance. In the meantime...

Champs you have listed as Good that I think should change:
Akali, Kennen, Shen: Their order is all about balance. Neutral.

Caityln, Fiora, Wukong: Caitlyn and Fiora seem mostly motivated by dilettantism and a desire to improve their skills, so I'd call them as Neutral. Wukong is similarly interested just in becoming a better martial artist.

Master Yi: He has too much vengeance in his soul, I think, to be classified as good. Neutral seems more appropriate.

Shyvana, Sona: They strike me as someone moral-neutral.

Vayne: I dunno about Vayne. Her quest is a bit too bloodthirsty and hate-centric, but Neutral doesn't seem to do her justice and Evil seems too harsh.

Champs you have listed as Neutral that I think should change:

Evelynn: her title is "the widowmaker." I'm pretty sure she's ebil.

Renekton: Evil.

Ryze: He might be Good, actually. He started out just seeking knowledge and magical power, but now he has something of a save-the-world mission in protecting his scroll.

Sivir: She kills for gold, so I'd probably list her as evil.

Twisted Fate: He sold his best friend and partner-in-crime for magical power. Evil.

Varus: Evil, with the potential to quickly become good.

Vladimir: Evil evil evil. He's a murderous sociopath who pursued blood magic so he could murder better.

Xerath: You know, I really, really want to say he's Evil, but I just can't be sure?

Champs you have listed as Evil that I think should change:

Darius: Just because he KSes all the time doesn't mean he's evil. ;P

Diana: I really just don't know about her. I think I'd still keep her as Evil, but (like Varus) can change to Good in an instant.

Kog'Maw: I think I'd actually list him as Neutral. He's amoral, not immoral. A destructive force that kills people, obviously, but he doesn't seem especially cognizant of what he's doing.

Viktor: Maaaaaaybe. I'm not so certain. Seems more Neutral-but-could-become-evil to me.

Uncertain

Fizz, Nidalee, Orianna, Rammus: Neutral.

Gangplank: So very, very evil.

Maokai: Probably neutral.

Ms. Fortune: Probably good (pirate hunter).

Mordekaiser: Who knows?

Nautilus: Evil. He's a creature of vengeance and hatred now.

Riven: I would actually say Good. Possibly neutral, but probably Good.

Trundle: Good, decidedly.

Zyra: From her in-game VO, I'd say Evil.


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Geokhan

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09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Tog View Post
Props for attempting this! I would suggest throwing in the Lawful/Chaotic axis as well since it allows for added nuance. In the meantime...

Champs you have listed as Good that I think should change:
Akali, Kennen, Shen: Their order is all about balance. Neutral.

Caityln, Fiora, Wukong: Caitlyn and Fiora seem mostly motivated by dilettantism and a desire to improve their skills, so I'd call them as Neutral. Wukong is similarly interested just in becoming a better martial artist.

Master Yi: He has too much vengeance in his soul, I think, to be classified as good. Neutral seems more appropriate.

Shyvana, Sona: They strike me as someone moral-neutral.

Vayne: I dunno about Vayne. Her quest is a bit too bloodthirsty and hate-centric, but Neutral doesn't seem to do her justice and Evil seems too harsh.

Champs you have listed as Neutral that I think should change:

Evelynn: her title is "the widowmaker." I'm pretty sure she's ebil.

Renekton: Evil.

Ryze: He might be Good, actually. He started out just seeking knowledge and magical power, but now he has something of a save-the-world mission in protecting his scroll.

Sivir: She kills for gold, so I'd probably list her as evil.

Twisted Fate: He sold his best friend and partner-in-crime for magical power. Evil.

Varus: Evil, with the potential to quickly become good.

Vladimir: Evil evil evil. He's a murderous sociopath who pursued blood magic so he could murder better.

Xerath: You know, I really, really want to say he's Evil, but I just can't be sure?

Champs you have listed as Evil that I think should change:

Darius: Just because he KSes all the time doesn't mean he's evil. ;P

Diana: I really just don't know about her. I think I'd still keep her as Evil, but (like Varus) can change to Good in an instant.

Kog'Maw: I think I'd actually list him as Neutral. He's amoral, not immoral. A destructive force that kills people, obviously, but he doesn't seem especially cognizant of what he's doing.

Viktor: Maaaaaaybe. I'm not so certain. Seems more Neutral-but-could-become-evil to me.

Uncertain

Fizz, Nidalee, Orianna, Rammus: Neutral.

Gangplank: So very, very evil.

Maokai: Probably neutral.

Ms. Fortune: Probably good (pirate hunter).

Mordekaiser: Who knows?

Nautilus: Evil. He's a creature of vengeance and hatred now.

Riven: I would actually say Good. Possibly neutral, but probably Good.

Trundle: Good, decidedly.

Zyra: From her in-game VO, I'd say Evil.
As for those you say are evil but could turn good on a dime, why not neutral then? That alignment is meant to be a grey area or a true balance.

I have to argue on that Trundle comment. I say neutral or evil. He was good, but the community backlash for his normal appearance was why he may have done the rite. He does say in his judgement that he no longer cares for them and that they are weaker for the removal of the curse that the League could easily remove. Trundle stated that he is thankful for the power the curse has given him.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly Ray View Post
Sorting out the alignments between champions (good, neutral & bad). Feel free to help me guys, since I'll probably be wrong with most of them.

Good
Ahri, Anivia, Caityln, Cassiopeia, Corki, Darius, Draven, Fiora, Galio, Gentleman Cho'Gath, Heimerdinger, Irelia, Jayce, Karma, Katarina, Kassadin, Lee Sin, Le Blanc, Leona, Lulu, Master Yi, Morgana, Nunu, Poppy, Rumble, Sion, Swain, Shyvana, Sona, Soraka, Talon, Teemo, Tristana, Urgot, Vayne, Volibear, Warwick, Ziggs.

Neutral
Akali, Ashe, Alistar, Amumu, Blitzcrank, Evelynn, Gragas, Graves, Janna, Jax, Karthus, Kennen, Lux, Malphite, Nasus, Olaf, Pantheon, Rengar, Renekton, Ryze, Shen, Sivir, Skarner, Tryndamere, Twisted Fate, Udyr, Varus, Vladimir, Wukong, Xerath, Yorick, Zilean

Bad
Brand, Diana, Dr. Mundo, Fiddlesticks, Garen, Jarvan IV, Kayle, Kog'Maw, Malzahar, Nocturne, Shaco, Singed, Syndra, Viktor, Xin Zhao.

Uncertain
Fizz, Gangplank, Hecarim, Maokai, Ms. Fortune, Mordekaiser, Nautilus, Nidalee, Orianna, Rammus, Riven, Sejuani, Trundle, Twitch, Zyra

Ebil

Veigar.

Questionable Sexuality

Ezreal, Taric.



Feel free to assist me with the ones I'm uncertain with.
Fixed. Mostly, at least.


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Shanock

Junior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geokhan View Post
Couple of points here. Firstly, that is well thought out and I respect your opinion, I would like to submit some counter points to point out what I see as flaws in your logic.
I see where you're going with this, but I think we've got a difference in perspectives. You're judging this from a traditional videogame/TV assessment of morality, I'm looking at this from real life morals. In real life, labels like "justice" "healer" "knight" "paladin" "caring" etc, don't mean anything as to a person's morality. The Nazis had a sense of justice, Hitler cared for his people, doctors have done terrible murders and experiments, most crusaders and jihadists were pretty brutal to anyone not of their own religion. Slave owners can clothe, feed, protect, and care for their slaves, but that doesn't make them good.

Kayle's faction and others say that Morgana's magic is evil, but why is that? Is it because Morgana's magic can hurt people? So can the magic of every other "good" character. Because others can protect or shield? So can Morgana. Magic is just a tool, there's no "good" or "evil" magic. In real life, guns, swords, kitchen knives, and weighted ropes, and properties of physics have no moral alignment, and can be used either way. Kayle's faction, like most real-life establishments of power, calls Morgana's magic evil because it can potentially challenge them. That's all.

I concede your point on Leona, but I still stand that the Iron Solari are pretty rotten. Lore-wise, I don't see Morgana or Diana going after any innocents. Whether they are fighting for their own ends is not a determining factor as to whether they are good or evil; revenge isn't always unjust.

In videogame logic, I'd agree with just about everything you've said. But in real life, distinctions aren't so romantic. In real life, good or evil is not about titles or labels, or what magic/tools are at their disposal, or how bright and shiny one's armor is, whether the background music sounds heroic or sinister, or whether the room lighting is bright or dark.

Evil is violating the lives and rights of others, even if one has good intentions or motivations.
Neutral is simply a matter of not being evil. Being selfish doesn't make you evil, as long as you're not achieving your ends by violating others. Forcing people to be selfless is slavery, which would, itself, be evil. Real-life neutrality isn't balance either; Hitler did both good and bad things, but the good doesn't balance out the bad and make him neutral.


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Trolosaurus

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Gangplank I would go with Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Evil. He has standards and wants to help Bilgewater, but he's still a pirate.
Fizz I would put as Chaotic Good or Neutral Good. He saved Bilgewater, but he's quite the prankster, and seems like quite the brutal fighter.
Hecarim is most certainly Chaotic evil considering he MASSACRED a demacian regiment and anyone that got in his way.
Maokai is Chaotic Good. He recognizes the misuse of magic and has standards,and I mean like he wouldn't randomly murder people, but he really, really hates magic users and those who abuse magic.
Miss Fortune is probably Lawful Neutral. She's out for herself, but she hates pirates and also wants to keep the waters free of em.
Mordekaiser..... I dunno. The quote at the end of his lore mentions that his suit may be keeping the world safe from him. He is obsessed with death and plague, kills people by touching them, and explodes into a noxious cloud when he dies. I think he may have joined the League to get rid of whatever is plaguing him.
Nautilus is Chaotic Neutral. He just wants revenge on certain people, but he isn't evil.
Nidalee is True Neutral. Representing herself and only herself. Maybe Chaotic Neutral considering she has killed people who trespassed on her domain before.
Orianna is bizarre to place, so I shall put her as True Neutral. She tries to please her father, and would just as soon save children from a burning orphanage as light the damn place on fire. Whatever makes her father happy.
Rammus is Lawful Neutral I see him as. He isn't a mean guy, but he doesn't have much to say and doesn't do much.
Riven is Lawful Good, and see's the error of her ways and wishes to atone.
Sejuani is Lawful Evil. She wants to rule and conquer Freljord by killing Ashe and Lissandra. However the Freljord of her vision is probably quite the brutal place. She wouldn't randomly massacre outsiders, but may attack Ashe's people.
Trundle is somewhere within the Neutral stage. He wants himself cured, but purposefully denied his kind the cure that would safe them out of revenge. He does what he wants basically, but he isn't evil. He also is probably quite lonely, kinda like Amumu.
Twitch is insane, legitimately, and may be responsible for a rat infestation. He's not the "nice guy" insane either. Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil.
Zyra I see as Chaotic Neutral. She follows her instincts, but these harm others. She probably doesn't know what "evil" is.


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Iron Ambássador

Senior Member

09-25-2012

I'm not sure if Lulu should be listed as "good". She's quite neutral if you ask me, she WAS banned from Bandle City after all, which is not the easiest thing to manage. She is not evil, nor good. She may seem sweet, but she has fairly low regard for how others think, as was seen when she was "playing" with Yordle children and turned them into flowers.


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Geokhan

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Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanock View Post
I see where you're going with this, but I think we've got a difference in perspectives. You're judging this from a traditional videogame/TV assessment of morality, I'm looking at this from real life morals. In real life, labels like "justice" "healer" "knight" "paladin" "caring" etc, don't mean anything as to a person's morality. The Nazis had a sense of justice, Hitler cared for his people, doctors have done terrible murders and experiments, most crusaders and jihadists were pretty brutal to anyone not of their own religion. Slave owners can clothe, feed, protect, and care for their slaves, but that doesn't make them good.

Kayle's faction and others say that Morgana's magic is evil, but why is that? Is it because Morgana's magic can hurt people? So can the magic of every other "good" character. Because others can protect or shield? So can Morgana. Magic is just a tool, there's no "good" or "evil" magic. In real life, guns, swords, kitchen knives, and weighted ropes, and properties of physics have no moral alignment, and can be used either way. Kayle's faction, like most real-life establishments of power, calls Morgana's magic evil because it can potentially challenge them. That's all.

I concede your point on Leona, but I still stand that the Iron Solari are pretty rotten. Lore-wise, I don't see Morgana or Diana going after any innocents. Whether they are fighting for their own ends is not a determining factor as to whether they are good or evil; revenge isn't always unjust.

In videogame logic, I'd agree with just about everything you've said. But in real life, distinctions aren't so romantic. In real life, good or evil is not about titles or labels, or what magic/tools are at their disposal, or how bright and shiny one's armor is, whether the background music sounds heroic or sinister, or whether the room lighting is bright or dark.

Evil is violating the lives and rights of others, even if one has good intentions or motivations.
Neutral is simply a matter of not being evil. Being selfish doesn't make you evil, as long as you're not achieving your ends by violating others. Forcing people to be selfless is slavery, which would, itself, be evil. Real-life neutrality isn't balance either; Hitler did both good and bad things, but the good doesn't balance out the bad and make him neutral.

No, I don't see Diana as evil either, but I don't see Kayle as evil. Kayle is at least lawful Neutral, but I really see her a good character. She does care about who she kills. it hurts her to do it. It isn't just a purge, it is a revolution that she is in the middle of and she is fighting family. She can say she doesn't care about Morg, but she is lying to herself if she believes it. Morg would gladly rip Kayle to shreds. Morgana violates the souls of others. Nasus does too and that is why I see him as neutral. Nasus doesn't pick and choose. He keeps the cycle going and that is all. He doesn't draw pleasure from it. Morgana relishes in her power. She is the black wings of death and she knows it and flaunts it. She can claim she is fighting for freedom, but I could easily see her as fighting for the ability to gather power.

I also have used the abilities argument again. Why? Because it fits. You don't learn something you dislike unless you got no choice. Morgana had a choice. She chose the black arts. Lux chose to chose a magic that reflects her good nature. Garen chose a role of defending his allies, albeit aggressively. Evil champions often choose evil skills because they see it as more power. Evil characters don't always abuse others. Example, one of my favorite Characters is a dark elf mercenary. He is evil. He kills and murders. Why? For money and fun. The army he unleashes is actually an army of slaves and in the underdark, you need slaves so you can live. His slaves are more of a product of his world than a reflection on him, but does he care about them? Not a bit. He is even the least xenophobic Drow who is still evil. He doesn't care about someone unless he can use them for money or fun.

So, why is he evil? because he is willing to do whatever he needs to in order to profit and will stab everyone in the back on the way. If he loved his mother, he would stab her in the throat, just to be nice about it.

However, these are my opinions, and I have explained them. I apologize for taking up so much wall space, and I will stop doing so.

That is not telling Shannok to not provide a counter argument, but I will cease my filling up of this thread.


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belthazor3457

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geokhan View Post
No, I don't see Diana as evil either, but I don't see Kayle as evil. Kayle is at least lawful Neutral, but I really see her a good character. She does care about who she kills. it hurts her to do it. It isn't just a purge, it is a revolution that she is in the middle of and she is fighting family. She can say she doesn't care about Morg, but she is lying to herself if she believes it. Morg would gladly rip Kayle to shreds. Morgana violates the souls of others. Nasus does too and that is why I see him as neutral. Nasus doesn't pick and choose. He keeps the cycle going and that is all. He doesn't draw pleasure from it. Morgana relishes in her power. She is the black wings of death and she knows it and flaunts it. She can claim she is fighting for freedom, but I could easily see her as fighting for the ability to gather power.

I also have used the abilities argument again. Why? Because it fits. You don't learn something you dislike unless you got no choice. Morgana had a choice. She chose the black arts. Lux chose to chose a magic that reflects her good nature. Garen chose a role of defending his allies, albeit aggressively. Evil champions often choose evil skills because they see it as more power. Evil characters don't always abuse others. Example, one of my favorite Characters is a dark elf mercenary. He is evil. He kills and murders. Why? For money and fun. The army he unleashes is actually an army of slaves and in the underdark, you need slaves so you can live. His slaves are more of a product of his world than a reflection on him, but does he care about them? Not a bit. He is even the least xenophobic Drow who is still evil. He doesn't care about someone unless he can use them for money or fun.

So, why is he evil? because he is willing to do whatever he needs to in order to profit and will stab everyone in the back on the way. If he loved his mother, he would stab her in the throat, just to be nice about it.

However, these are my opinions, and I have explained them. I apologize for taking up so much wall space, and I will stop doing so.

That is not telling Shannok to not provide a counter argument, but I will cease my filling up of this thread.
Morgana's magic being soul-rending doesn't really hold much impact on her personal morality. As for relishing power, here's a saying:

"Two men are fighting. One fights to kill the other, the other fights to stop his attacker, not intending to press the attack if he succeeds. The one trying to commit murder will probably win."

Your "spells" are your weapons, and you'd want them to be as efficient as possible. You need to be intimate with your handgun, not intimidated by it. In the grander scheme, what her weapons effect exist on a scale of practicality and not on a scale of morality. It doesn't really matter if her practical weapons tear at people's souls, nor does it matter if she's obtaining more power personally.

Power is the whole point. Everything keeping a civilization or a person afloat in the cruelty that is reality are varrying levels of power.

Let me draw the curtain back for you. Torture, on earth, is most commonly used because you're not sure if someone has information or not, and torture is the best way to find out. It is used on people who you -know- have information in the minority of cases. If you go to spain or italy, most police "interviews" will start off physically.

If given the choice between the spells of Lux, or the spells of Morgana, if I had one set to inherit irl, I'd pick Morgana hands down. Why? Mainly her passive, I could keep myself healthy forever so long as I fed off someone once in a while. If I chose to confine that to prison inmates that are serial killers whom I drain the souls of, that's a matter of my personal choice, not the spell being "good".

And since when did Morgana "have a choice"? Where in the lore does it say that? No, if you're on even footing with your enemy, you look for any possible advantage to increase your power and put you in a situation above that of your opponent. Black magic? So be it. The assertion that she could have chosen to avoid black magic, thus lowering her power level, and fought in that state, is self-destructive.