@morello- lets continue the soraka thing here

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epiikk

Senior Member

09-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borigrad View Post
Sona is one of the strongest supports in the game right now, what are you talking about.
lol that's funny. the only thing she has going for her is the AoE stun, the other supports do everything else she does better


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egotralala

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Senior Member

09-20-2012

M-A-N-A.....B-U-R-N.....wtf.....


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epiikk

Senior Member

09-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by egotralala View Post
M-A-N-A.....B-U-R-N.....wtf.....
not as bad as you think. wit's end was bad because it burned every AA


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Borigrad

Senior Member

09-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by epiikk View Post
lol that's funny. the only thing she has going for her is the AoE stun, the other supports do everything else she does better
Except Sona is really strong right now. Name another support that has a free reliable Shureyla's in their kit on a 5 second cooldown.

On top of also having a free Aegis of the Legion.


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epiikk

Senior Member

09-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borigrad View Post
Except Sona is really strong right now. Name another support that has a free reliable Shureyla's in their kit on a 5 second cooldown.

On top of also having a free Aegis of the Legion.
have fun being useless for the first half of the game, while the other team's AD carry has a useful support and can just roflstomp your lane


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Borigrad

Senior Member

09-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by epiikk View Post
have fun being useless for the first half of the game, while the other team's AD carry has a useful support and can just roflstomp your lane
Sona is the best poke support in the game.


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jedidioh

Senior Member

09-20-2012

her W needs to go, having two spells in one champ is just a bit obnoxious


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Morello

Lead Designer

09-20-2012
1 of 20 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadshotCalamity View Post
Well, I starting writing a longer-than-average post/rant to Morello but the thread closed as I posted it. Since I really want Morello to read it and, perhaps, discuss it with me... I shall post it here.


Morello, you consistently compare Soraka to the TF2 medic and how they are 'poor assets' to their respective games through excessive healing.

While I can't argue Soraka's value to gameplay one way or the other, I can address the medic.

Simply put, you've stated numerous times that the TF2 medic has stagnated gameplay and causes stalemates. This is simply not the case. The medic is, in fact, the reason stalemates are broken and gameplay can continue. The defending team has an excellent defense? The medic is just the class needed to break the stalemate and push the odds in the offenses favor.

You need to stop making this comparison and thinking that it justifies your views on Soraka. While it may convince people ignorant to TF2 competitive play, it doesn't cut it for those that actually particapate reguarly in the competitive scene.

Sincerely, A TF2 comp player with an interest in LoL.

Edit: This post may seem off topic to the thread. That's because it genuinely is and I kind of regret posting it... slightly. However, with Morello bringing up the tf2 medic in this thread, it slightly justifies my post. And, I just really wanted to say this to Morello for so long, as he has been making false claims and assumptions.

My apologies if you find this post either off topic and/or worthless. As you were, G.D.
Medics are an inelegant solution to a problem that doesn't need to exist. This is a more complex issue, but lemme see if I can make this make sense. Also let me state that I have a ton of respect for Valve overall, but as any designers, there's plenty of disagreement between specifics!

Medics do break stalemates in TF2, yes. This is undeniably true - but they do bring a plethora of problems that are equally bad with them, and aren't, in my opinion, the correct way to address the problem. It's a classic example of a problem pile-up.

When designing the game mode and maps, there's lots of choke points and defensible positions that can easily stagnate. Tight corners with few/no alternative paths, binary attack/defense objectives and pretty over-the-top weapons mean the when skills are equal, it's easy to stalemate the game (and that's actually the defending team's job - remove progress from the aggressors). I think, simply, map and objective design is the correct solution since that's where the problem is born from.

Medics solve that problem pretty effectively (games are much harder to stalemate now with them), but solve a problem by adding more problems, robbing Peter to pay Paul, essentially. This creates a cyclical problem where you pile on a new system or element to deal with a previous problem, but then that element is likely to have problems. It'd be like us dealing with the safety of top lane by removing the towers entirely.

Morello, why are medics a problem? Some of us think they're really fun!

It's a big question and I think a really valid one, because my thoughts on this are pretty unpopular with a lot of players and a lot of other game designers.

The problem is, in the specific case of TF2, multi-threaded:

* Medics become the game in skilled play. The entire gameflow is dependent and reliant on the medic, to where killing him or not becomes the central focus. This is because the gameflow relies on them to move action when all else is equal.

* Ubercharge is only counterable by another ubercharge, unless one team is significantly better than the other. Anything countered by itself creates a single path to victory.

* Constant healing/overhealing changes the entire combat pacing. This exists in WoW, TF2, and if healing were more prevalent, LoL. It invalidates attrition and removes long-term pacing (well I didn't kill that Soldier, but he's at 10% health and therefore 90% easier for a teammate to clean up) and makes burst much more powerful. Simply, it lessens strategic variety. As you guys have seen over LoL's lifespan, any fight that doesn't resolve near-instantly (Counter Strike) can easily result in no change or progress at all.

* Medics remove action from second-to-second combat. For FPS, primary gameplay loops are created through positioning, aim, reaction time, movement, map feature exploitation and matchups. The satisfaction of that encounter results in the death of a player one either side. Medics prevent that satisfaction from occurring.

* In order to make a healer satisfying, they have to be disproportionately impactful. A Priest in your War3 army can be balanced more easily, because the little Priest doesn't have to derive meaning or satisfaction out of making the life bars go up. But when you ARE that Priest, it has to feel good to create a positive experience - and doing so when your job is resource refilling, it needs to be pretty beast to make that feel noticeable.

I think from a "are the fun to use" standpoint, medics succeed very highly at creating a satisfying, impactful healer. The problem of that is they do so at the expense of the rest of the game, and this applies to WoW healers, and frankly a character whose only job is to heal friends. Support is fine, even healing is fine, but making an entire role and core loop out of healing is fundamentally destructive, long-term, to team-based PvP.


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Kayleorfeed

Senior Member

09-20-2012

i heard competitive hat fortress 2 was who could make the best hat


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Kedali

Senior Member

09-20-2012

Did you ever play Dark Age of Camelot Morello? I can't help but think you might have a different opinion on healers if you had.


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