Why support and AD carry bottom lane?

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AvariciousHippo

Junior Member

09-17-2012

Current meta is what it is because it works.

As Togekiss24 notes, the bottom lane is closest to Dragon. Dragon is +190 gold team wide, and a major factor in competitive games.

As Ryan16Leaf brings up, splitting minion kills between two champions means less focused gold. Many of the solo-top AD bruisers need quite a bit of gold to really be felt by mid game, and splitting that gold up is a serious problem for them. Imagine Nassus trying to Q-farm alongside, well, anyone. If Nassus doesn't get his kills, he won't be wrecking face late game... If the other guy doesn't get any kills, they are going to be hopping mad or just straight gimped.

An ADC + Support should destroy most kill-lanes you describe. While Xin, Jax etc. do have very good base damage and decent scaling, they will be utterly unable to farm if the Support + ADC have a clue how to play. One ward in the bushes can let the ADC + Support totally zone out their competition. All of those bruisers will need to get to the creeps to farm, and Caitlyn (or whoever) will just pound their face in while Sona Power Chords and laughs her head off.

Finally, the AD-dive-kill-lanes can easily be baited into over pushing (they need to be close to get CS, they dive to get kills) and this is a decent Jungler's wet dream. Any jungler worth their salt is going to set up shop bottom lane and, whenever the lane is pushed, go get some.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

09-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesot View Post
Why not duo mid? Gives support more access to other lanes and warding would be new easily effective. Once mid tower is down, the carry could roam our switch lanes to allow someone else to roam.
Mid is a shorter distance between towers so it's easier to escape mid ganks. Thus a solo champion is more likely to survive ganks in mid than they are to survive ganks in a side lane.


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Epictues

Senior Member

09-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesot View Post
Why not duo mid? Gives support more access to other lanes and warding would be new easily effective. Once mid tower is down, the carry could roam our switch lanes to allow someone else to roam.

well if you use a adc. I dont think the ADC on bottom would be able to hold his lane against 2 champs(possibly 3 from a jungler gank). maybe if you used a different type of champ for bottom.


Ive always been interested in using 2 junglers.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

09-17-2012

The solo-bot has been done by Moscow 5. They basically did a roaming support that frequented bottom, but the bot lane was mostly held solo by Urgot.

Their strategy (IIRC) revolved around invading and stealing an early blue for Urgot, and Urgot would proceed to harass the tar out of the opposing composition from extreme range. The support and jungle would show up for kill attempts, but mostly the support and jungle focused on clearing and counter jungling. It was effective against the teams they were matched up against. I'm not sure what other champs would be capable of enabling such a strategy though.


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Epictues

Senior Member

09-18-2012

yea certain champs with a blue buff can hold their lane early lvl against un even numbers.
a blue buffed Lux for example can hold her lane 3vs1 early game.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

09-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
The solo-bot has been done by Moscow 5. They basically did a roaming support that frequented bottom, but the bot lane was mostly held solo by Urgot.

Their strategy (IIRC) revolved around invading and stealing an early blue for Urgot, and Urgot would proceed to harass the tar out of the opposing composition from extreme range. The support and jungle would show up for kill attempts, but mostly the support and jungle focused on clearing and counter jungling. It was effective against the teams they were matched up against. I'm not sure what other champs would be capable of enabling such a strategy though.
Essentially, this is the "double jungle" meta. It has higher potential than the current meta, but it's more dangerous and less consistent. The "support" is leaching XP off the jungler instead of the ADC (and the jungler already gets the least XP), and there's not many minions in the jungle compared to what a good farmer will last-hit in lane. If you're only able to kill the minions in your own jungle, you're hindering your chances playing this way.

For this strategy to work, you must be effective at invading the enemy jungler and taking his farm as well as getting a few kills on him. You must also know where he is at all times.

If the enemy team picks a passive farm bottom lane duo, you can take a similar ADC and know that it'll be pretty quiet down there, even 2v1. But if the enemy jungler heads down there and makes it a 3v1, one CC will basically assure a kill.


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Jesot

Senior Member

09-18-2012

With a complementary support/jungle combo, you can counter jungle all you want. The pressure of defending jungle will make 3 solo lanes easier.

Maybe Nunu and Shyv since they can share buffs and tear apart any opponent at level 3.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

09-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesot View Post
With a complementary support/jungle combo, you can counter jungle all you want. The pressure of defending jungle will make 3 solo lanes easier.

Maybe Nunu and Shyv since they can share buffs and tear apart any opponent at level 3.
It's still dangerous and far less consistent compared to the current meta.

Suppose you're on blue team using a double-jungle comp. I have to assume that a double-jungle strategy has to invade one of the enemy buffs on first spawn, but let's look at later in the game when the buffs have respawned. It's time to go get the enemy blue buff.

The enemy team knows that because you're double-jungling, it's important for your team to feed of the spawns in their jungle. They KNOW you're going to be coming for at least their buffs--they know you can't miss these. They'll ward the river to know which one you're coming to. So you're on your way to blue.

But remember, you're on their side of the river. The enemy mid-lane, jungler, ADC, and support, all meet you at your blue. Best case scenario for your team is that your mid and ADC also show up. This is still going to be advantage for the purple team more often than for the blue team. And here are some reasons why...

1) It is easier for purple team to get people to their own blue buff than it is for blue team to get people to enemy blue buff, so purple team has a numerical advantage more often than not.

2) Even in the case where the numbers are even (2v2, 3v3, 4v4), your teammates have to spend more time out of lane to get to the fight. This means they miss more experience and last hits then the enemy teammates that come to assist the fight.

3) Turrets are safety nets, and you're a lot farther from yours than the enemy is from theirs. It is harder for you to secure a kill unless you're able to dive their turret, meanwhile it's harder for you to save yourself because you're too far from your own turrets. This essentially means that even if the number of champions are even, the enemy still has a numerical advantage by counting their turret. Assuming all turrets are up, they have 4 friendly turrets to run to that are all closer than your nearest friendly turret.

There are other factors that make venturing into the enemy jungle dangerous. Now, this isn't to imply that you shouldn't go into the enemy jungle. It's pretty obvious that's not the case. Counter jungling is very important even in the current 1:1:2:jungler meta. But the 1:1:2:jungler meta doesn't RELY on counter jungling. If you did a 1:1:1:2jungler meta, you're RELYING on going into the enemy jungle, and the enemy team KNOWS this.

The jungler is already the lowest on experience, and lowest on gold behind the support. Now granted, moving the support out of bottom lane and into the jungle doesn't change the gold flow. We'll assume that the support still gives the jungler every last hit. But all you've done is boosted the XP the ADC is getting (when he doesn't really need any more) and hampered the XP the jungler gets (when he's already the weakest link in terms of experience).

This puts a LOT of pressure on the double jungle team. They HAVE to invade the enemy jungle regularly in order to keep a high level of experience. They also have to pull of successful ganks regularly to help bolster the experience and gold.

Again, I'm not saying a successful double jungle strategy is worse than the current standard meta. What I'm saying is that the double jungle strategy is less consistent. The current meta is safe and consistent. While the current meta doesn't necessarily do much to really shut out the enemy team (like a double jungle comp could), it also prevents the enemy team from easily shutting out your own team.


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JRotund

Senior Member

09-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Togekiss24 View Post
People don't necessarily follow it because their "meta-sheep" its because it makes sense and it works.
disagree. if you know the exact same team setup will happen every game, then there will always be a way to counter that. but the herd mentality in every queue and the game as a whole makes pretty much any solo queue game follow the meta.


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