Few words about Queue Dodge Timer

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RiotKiddington

Platform Engineer

09-05-2012
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There are few people on this forum talks about the queue dodge penalty timer been either too long, or too short. I just want to give some reasons behind why queue dodge penalty timer is needed.

Long ago, we do not have any queue dodge control on any queues. The end result is that it takes more than half hour to get a game started. This is not ideal, because people can dodge for any reasons or no reasons and it take forever to start a game. This is a historical fact and it is not speculation. On the other end of the spectrum, it is speculated that if we put a queue dodge penalty of 200 years or so, no one will dodge (duh!). But of course Lyte believe thatís too extreme and it is crazy.

On the one end there is the lower limit of zero penalties and on the other end there is upper limit of some super long time penalties. The answer must be some time limit in between those two extremes that will achieve the most effective discouragement of queue dodging yet permit queue dodging under certain extreme situations. The reasoning is simple, we want to give people the ability to dodge only if it is absolutely necessary, or due to unforeseen technical difficulties; we want people try their best to follow the summonerís code and try their best at the game; we want people to communicate with their teammates during champion selection; we also want people to be able to start a game quickly. Thatís why we put in a time limit that game design believe it is optimal to allow dodge under certain conditions at a cost that will make people think their actions before dodging and to prevent certain (known) abuse.

It is an act of balance. If there is a need for queue dodging for whatever reason(s), it also must be balanced between the interest of the queue dodger and rest of the players who do not want to dodge. The system must also designed to prevent abuse of many types. Game designer Yegg will be working on the design to improve the queue dodge controls in the near future. We will continue adjust and improve the queue dodge system to make it better.

Feel free to share your opinions about the current queue dodge system. I will forward it to Yegg and Lyte.


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Jenny Wakemen

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Senior Member

09-05-2012

I feel there needs to be a difference between dodging earlier in queue and later in queue.
So for someone that waits until the game is about to start and dodges should be more severely punished then someone who dodges after 1-2 champions have been selected.

Of course that brings around the problem of 'Oh someone picked my hero I wanted to play. Oh well better dodge', but heh. Waiting 3-4 minutes just to have someone dodge is quite annoying


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SpadeCA

Senior Member

09-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotKiddington View Post
There are few people on this forum talks about the queue dodge penalty timer been either too long, or too short. I just want to give some reasons behind why queue dodge penalty timer is needed.

Long ago, we do not have any queue dodge control on any queues. The end result is that it takes more than half hour to get a game started. This is not ideal, because people can dodge for any reasons or no reasons and it take forever to start a game. This is a historical fact and it is not speculation. On the other end of the spectrum, it is speculated that if we put a queue dodge penalty of 200 years or so, no one will dodge (duh!). But of course Lyte believe thatís too extreme and it is crazy.

On the one end there is the lower limit of zero penalties and on the other end there is upper limit of some super long time penalties. The answer must be some time limit in between those two extremes that will achieve the most effective discouragement of queue dodging yet permit queue dodging under certain extreme situations. The reasoning is simple, we want to give people the ability to dodge only if it is absolutely necessary, or due to unforeseen technical difficulties; we want people try their best to follow the summonerís code and try their best at the game; we want people to communicate with their teammates during champion selection; we also want people to be able to start a game quickly. Thatís why we put in a time limit that game design believe it is optimal to allow dodge under certain conditions at a cost that will make people think their actions before dodging and to prevent certain (known) abuse.

It is an act of balance. If there is a need for queue dodging for whatever reason(s), it also must be balanced between the interest of the queue dodger and rest of the players who do not want to dodge. The system must also designed to prevent abuse of many types. Game designer Yegg will be working on the design to improve the queue dodge controls in the near future. We will continue adjust and improve the queue dodge system to make it better.

Feel free to share your opinions about the current queue dodge system. I will forward it to Yegg and Lyte.
I was just thinking about the bolded part awhile ago.
Solution? Keep the queue dodge timer around the average time of a normal game (40-60 minutes)and add on additional time for multiple dodges in a given timeframe(12 hours).

This way, no one gets hurt for a emergency queue dodge and actual multiple game dodgers actually get punished.

Also, I think a IP queue dodge system should be implemented, as some dodgers have a separate account to switch to when they get a timer. Also Vice versa, the other account gets a timer, he switches back the first.


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Wards win games

Senior Member

09-05-2012

Have you considered a "forgiveness" system? I for one would love it; even if the "forgiveness" was set quite high. I.E play 100 matches without dodging/or leaving, you earn a free dodge without a penalty. This would help quell those of us who only dodge at the "Worst of times", for lack of a better phrase.

Across both my accounts; I think I've dodged maybe 6 matches in my entire LOL career. These were games where each time someone in champion select stated "mid or feed" or "I can only play ADC in ranked, so im gonna just AFK".

I agree a system as needed, but can't help but feel that I'm being punished for avoiding a match that is clearly going to be a negative gaming experience for me and other members of my team, something the system is in place to prevent to begin with. there was even one occasion where the team flat out told me while I was first pick "Hey kid, you're support, we're a 4 que, we're going to report you if you don't". I then had to wait 30 minutes to avoid being spam reported by a bunch of "Undesirable teammates". I know one game of reports wouldn't have earned me a ban, but why even take those reports on my record, they were clearly trying to heckle me from the start?

Thanks for the explanation/reasoning behind the timers either way =D If you have considered a "forgiveness system", what negative side effects would you folks foresee?

Also; the current dodge/que system:

Why are we made to wait in que until everyone in the que bracket selects or declines the match? Why doesn't it just boot us and place back in the que immediately after one person says "no"? I have a guess, I'll toss it out.

I think it's to prevent people from controlling which que they are in, for ranked. I.E 2 different duo ques que up, and all hit no until they see the 4 of them all hitting no, thus ensuring they are in the same game (Either to group up, or throw the match for ELO boosting) I *think* the delay is in place to "reorganize" the que bracket, and swap up who is on which team. I could be completely off though; this has urked me the lat couple weeks since it was rolled out and I would love to know officially the reasoning.


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Wightraven

Senior Member

09-05-2012

Thing is, sometimes one needs to dodge for a good reason. I mean, if you have to leave or you're just dodging because you think the team comp is bad, that's one thing. You're either not going to be around to suffer the penalty, or are making a choice between suffering the penalty or having a potentially bad match that take around the same amount of time.

The problem comes in with people who are abusive in queue. Just earlier today I was getting into a ranked match with a player on my team who was not only uncooperative and insulting in champ select, but also spouted about three different racial slurs. I waited until the last second hoping someone else would give up and dodge, but no, the duty fell to me.

I didn't want to play upwards of twenty minutes of a game with this guy. But I get punished for THIRTY because HE'S a racist? Worse yet, I forgot to nab his name before I dodged, so I can't even submit a support ticket to report him, since there's no reporting in champ select.

On most fronts I like the system in place. Sometimes I have to think long and hard about whether I'd like to suffer through what appears to be a bad match or just take a breather and catch the next one... but with this kind of thing it feels like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If there's one area that could be worked on, that would be the one.


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Kagami

Senior Member

09-05-2012

As other have mentioned I feel the system is needed as is, but something needs to be done about the players being toxic, or trolling into to force dodge on someone else, or potentially ruining a match for one of the teams.


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XReyoX

Senior Member

09-05-2012

Can we have a report feature pre-game so we can report something like revive promote eve? These do not belong to ranked games no matter what they say.


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bomberfox

Senior Member

09-05-2012

I much appreciate the current dodge penalty, especially for ranked. Sometimes there are games where even in champ select your team is arguing, and you don't want to have a team full of anger all game. Other times something comes up when you thought you had time to queue. However the penalty is enough so that you obviously cannot abuse it and need to think about dodging.


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Hexenir

Senior Member

09-05-2012

I won't say anything specific about the *timer*, because I never experienced it.

On ranked queues, I always try to trust my teammates. If they say they are good with some unusual champ or role - revive/promote eve, as an example - I won't be really happy about it, but I'll try to work with them as good as I can.

The problem is when the guy pick promote/revive eve and go "LOL F****TS I'M TROLLING NOOBS" or "f**k you stupid noob stole my role stupid s**t mo**********er". You know that's probably gonna be a frustrating game and I really would like a way to dodge it - I won't because I don't want to wait that much to play and I have no guarantees that the guy will in fact ruin our games - he might be just bluffing.

I know this issue has been discussed over and over again, but I'd like a way to avoid these kind of situations on champion select - is not direct related to queue dodge, but it's one of the causes of it.


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RedPlanet

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Senior Member

09-05-2012

From the perspective of someone who practically only plays ranked.

The primary problem I find with this approach is the existence of "smurfs."

The fact that there is only a time penalty (about as long as one game) encourages people to log on to a second account and play there. So in effect you have very little if any actual penalty for dodging. This behavior has become even more noticeable lately.

I believe part of the reason Riot removed Elo penalties for dodging was because a small number of people abused it to tank their rating and play at extremely low levels.

But when the current queuedodge penalty encourages smurfing, you get a problem much like that except much more widespread (not just a handful of deliberate abusers - anyone who smurfs is playing below their level.) And these people often have less attachment to their secondary account, so there's often further negative effects there.

This is on top of the negative effects the actual increased amount of dodging causes to the greater playerbase in terms of wasted time.

I would say the Elo loss was definitely the lesser of the two evils. To soften the edge I might also consider allowing 1 free dodge per day to handle extreme circumstances.


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