Do you think the Tribunal is effective?

Yes (Please explain why) 347 65.72%
No (Please explain why) 181 34.28%
Voters: 528. You may not vote on this poll

Poll: Do you think the Tribunal is effective?

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Donnylicious

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Senior Member

08-19-2012

Do you feel that reporting players is effective in encouraging admirable gameplay or is it more of a nuisance and simply a tool for reprisal?

Does the Tribunal make players want to be more positive or does it just make players afraid they'll get banned again?

Is the Tribunal fair in accessing the entire picture even though it's based on limited evidence?

Do actions and programs like The Tribunal help promote Riot or just makes them lose customers?

What are your thoughts?

Edit; I should have wrote the title as "Do you think the Tribunal is Fair?"


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FallenInfinity

Senior Member

08-19-2012

There are basically 5 classifications of people in this situation.

Innocent people that do not fear it. These people understand the purpose of the tribunal, and know that, if for some reason they end up under its hammer, they deserved it. These people will never post ban appeals, unless it is truly for something they are innocent for. These are less likely to even be banned in the first place, as they're not likely that Riot staff would, after reading the details, insist a permaban.

Innocent people that do fear it. These are the people that don't fully understand what the tribunal is and does. They fear getting banned, but they also would not under normal circumstances do anything to be banned. These are unfortunately the people who are most effected negatively by it.

Guilty ones that fear it. These are people that know they're likely going to get caught, because they know they do wrong. These are likely also the ones that tend to post appeals on normal permaban cases. These people, although not ruining the game for others, still provide negative atmospheres for other players.

Guilty ones that do not fear it. The person thinks that the tribunal is a joke, or does not work, and will act as they please. These are the people that, when banned, end up raging in forums (I do not have to post any names... as we all know at least one...) These are the people that we do not want playing the game at all, because they simply believe that they have the right to do what they want. (a lot of people from the 3rd group, that start spending a lot of money, tend to move here, as they think that them paying money makes them immune)

The final group, is similar to the previous... as they are guilty and also do not fear it, but for different reasons. These are the people, that will purposely cause issues for other players... continuously. Trolls. The people that will, when banned, not say a word, not ask for an appeal. simply create another account, and repeat the same actions that got them banned. These people are often from the 4th group, who have raged their hearts out in the forums, and have given up trying to get their level 30 account back, and simply set out to ruin the game for others.

In summary, I believe this works for the most part. The ones who are guilty of doing wrong, are the ones who get banned. The ones who are innocent, do not. Unfortunately, as the second group, there are some innocent players, that do not fully understand this, and therefore play in fear of being banned. It is simply something that they will learn, eventually, becoming part of the first group.

there are unfortunately, a few that move from the top down, rather than the bottom up. People that are otherwise innocent, classified under group two, getting a warning because they got upset a couple games, and believing they have done nothing wrong, start to do wrong, as they think that the system is unbalanced... then progress downward.

The tribunal, works as good as anything can, if not better, for a justice system imposed on an otherwise completely anonymous system.

There's not quite 100% evidence presented. When you see 4 different cases, totaling 12 reports, you see 4 cases. you do not see the other thousand games where the player was an angel. This is the one downfall of the system, but also a strength. As if you see that 4/1000 are infractions, you would simply be more lenient, because they are normally good.
RL EXAMPLE FOLLOWING:
The fact is, just because someone spent 60 years of their life not breaking the law, doesn't mean they should be held any more innocent when they do, than someone who is only 20.

The tribunal provides a completely unique system. As it does not base itself off of rules, it is more off of guidelines. This makes it down to what each individual voter's preferences are.
If they would not enjoy a game with a person of that attitude/actions... punish.
if they think that its not really a problem that they did that, pardon.

being punished by the tribunal means that the majority of players that read your case simply said "I dont want to play a game with someone who does that."

Because it is not staff directly deciding on your fate, it is the players, it becomes an amazingly unique, and an effective tool, at drawing attention. In truth, if the Tribunal was more... not quite advertised, but known, League of Legends could quickly multiply in size. Most players of games would jump at the chance to be able to finally react on the trolls and ragers that they hate so much. There's not a good gamer out there that does not wish they had a BAN button on their keyboard, to get rid of the people that ruin the game... this is pretty darn close to one.


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Magus Crow

Senior Member

08-19-2012

For the most part I think that the tribunal does what it is supposed to do and does it fairly well. I'd certainly like for us to get more information than we do when judging a case for starters (pre and post game chat would be nice, so would match replays for those really tough calls also).

I do however believe that the majority of people fall into the category of those who are innocent but fear the tribunal. To me this seems to be a combination of a lack of education on how tribunal cases are generated and what the exact process is when once a case is generated and the more disturbing 'report culture' that seems to be rampant among all PvP aspects of the game.

Education is a somewhat easy fix in that the information can be put out there (and I think that most of the relevant information is already there for anyone to read) but I'm not sure what can be further done to counter the report culture.


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Donnylicious

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenInfinity View Post
There are basically 5 classifications of people in this situation.

Innocent people that do not fear it. These people understand the purpose of the tribunal, and know that, if for some reason they end up under its hammer, they deserved it. These people will never post ban appeals, unless it is truly for something they are innocent for. These are less likely to even be banned in the first place, as they're not likely that Riot staff would, after reading the details, insist a permaban.

Innocent people that do fear it. These are the people that don't fully understand what the tribunal is and does. They fear getting banned, but they also would not under normal circumstances do anything to be banned. These are unfortunately the people who are most effected negatively by it.

Guilty ones that fear it. These are people that know they're likely going to get caught, because they know they do wrong. These are likely also the ones that tend to post appeals on normal permaban cases. These people, although not ruining the game for others, still provide negative atmospheres for other players.

Guilty ones that do not fear it. The person thinks that the tribunal is a joke, or does not work, and will act as they please. These are the people that, when banned, end up raging in forums (I do not have to post any names... as we all know at least one...) These are the people that we do not want playing the game at all, because they simply believe that they have the right to do what they want. (a lot of people from the 3rd group, that start spending a lot of money, tend to move here, as they think that them paying money makes them immune)

The final group, is similar to the previous... as they are guilty and also do not fear it, but for different reasons. These are the people, that will purposely cause issues for other players... continuously. Trolls. The people that will, when banned, not say a word, not ask for an appeal. simply create another account, and repeat the same actions that got them banned. These people are often from the 4th group, who have raged their hearts out in the forums, and have given up trying to get their level 30 account back, and simply set out to ruin the game for others.

In summary, I believe this works for the most part. The ones who are guilty of doing wrong, are the ones who get banned. The ones who are innocent, do not. Unfortunately, as the second group, there are some innocent players, that do not fully understand this, and therefore play in fear of being banned. It is simply something that they will learn, eventually, becoming part of the first group.

there are unfortunately, a few that move from the top down, rather than the bottom up. People that are otherwise innocent, classified under group two, getting a warning because they got upset a couple games, and believing they have done nothing wrong, start to do wrong, as they think that the system is unbalanced... then progress downward.

The tribunal, works as good as anything can, if not better, for a justice system imposed on an otherwise completely anonymous system.

There's not quite 100% evidence presented. When you see 4 different cases, totaling 12 reports, you see 4 cases. you do not see the other thousand games where the player was an angel. This is the one downfall of the system, but also a strength. As if you see that 4/1000 are infractions, you would simply be more lenient, because they are normally good.
RL EXAMPLE FOLLOWING:
The fact is, just because someone spent 60 years of their life not breaking the law, doesn't mean they should be held any more innocent when they do, than someone who is only 20.

The tribunal provides a completely unique system. As it does not base itself off of rules, it is more off of guidelines. This makes it down to what each individual voter's preferences are.
If they would not enjoy a game with a person of that attitude/actions... punish.
if they think that its not really a problem that they did that, pardon.

being punished by the tribunal means that the majority of players that read your case simply said "I dont want to play a game with someone who does that."

Because it is not staff directly deciding on your fate, it is the players, it becomes an amazingly unique, and an effective tool, at drawing attention. In truth, if the Tribunal was more... not quite advertised, but known, League of Legends could quickly multiply in size. Most players of games would jump at the chance to be able to finally react on the trolls and ragers that they hate so much. There's not a good gamer out there that does not wish they had a BAN button on their keyboard, to get rid of the people that ruin the game... this is pretty darn close to one.
In summary you're basically saying it is effective because 'people vote on whether they would want to play with the banned person?' This is irrelevant when they only see the report and have to make a decision on limited evidence. There's no way for them to know what really happened in the game.
Also the whole idea of having the community punish other players is rather mind boggling. League of Legends is a free to play game, which means they make their money from people who like the game, like Riot, and want to support the company. IMO they should be presenting themselves as a company who rewards players who support them. Yet they allow a "third party" the anonymous community to impose judgements and bans on other players. Poor PR IMO.


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Donnylicious

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Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus Crow View Post
For the most part I think that the tribunal does what it is supposed to do and does it fairly well. I'd certainly like for us to get more information than we do when judging a case for starters (pre and post game chat would be nice, so would match replays for those really tough calls also).

I do however believe that the majority of people fall into the category of those who are innocent but fear the tribunal. To me this seems to be a combination of a lack of education on how tribunal cases are generated and what the exact process is when once a case is generated and the more disturbing 'report culture' that seems to be rampant among all PvP aspects of the game.

Education is a somewhat easy fix in that the information can be put out there (and I think that most of the relevant information is already there for anyone to read) but I'm not sure what can be further done to counter the report culture.
Why do you feel the Tribunal is effective?


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Magus Crow

Senior Member

08-19-2012

It does (for the most part) what it was intended to do. It enforces the code of conduct that the majority of the community deems acceptable.


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Donnylicious

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Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus Crow View Post
It does (for the most part) what it was intended to do. It enforces the code of conduct that the majority of the community deems acceptable.
Therein lies the problem. They only deem based on a report not the actual events of the game. Even then it's only seen by a few people, not the 'majority.'

My only problem with that is the way they enforce it. It doesn't promote good behavior. People get banned, they get back on, and they're still negative if not more so, and at the same time they're losing players and potential customers. IMO what would work better is a reward system where players are rewarded for good behavior.


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Magus Crow

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnylicious View Post
Therein lies the problem. They only deem based on a report not the actual events of the game. Even then it's only seen by a few people, not the 'majority.'

My only problem with that is the way they enforce it. It doesn't promote good behavior. People get banned, they get back on, and they're still negative if not more so, and at the same time they're losing players and potential customers. IMO what would work better is a reward system where players are rewarded for good behavior.
So there should be no punishment whatsoever for poor behavior and abuse? I cant condone that idea whatsoever.

You also need to realize that while the carrot approach may work fairly well whatever Riot decideds to give away for free is something that they cannot make a profit from. At the end of the day they are still a company that needs to turn a profit. I see other problems with this approach as well. Namely abusing the system after I've recieved my reward and the overall sense of entitlement that people tend to get when rewards are handed out.

Dont get me wrong, I think that there is a place for the carrot approach within the structure of a corporate, money-making goal but I believe that you still need a stick (and from my view you need a MUCH bigger stick than a carrot... that's a different discussion though) and that you need to keep the carrots small enough that it isnt going to bother your bottom line.


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Donnylicious

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Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus Crow View Post
So there should be no punishment whatsoever for poor behavior and abuse? I cant condone that idea whatsoever.
The only problem is that most the entire community, and generally (mostly anyone on the internet under the age of 30) has poor and abusive behavior online. People may be nice in real life but when they're anonymous, they go crazy. As is with anyone who uses the internet. So now we have random people banning other players out spite, reprisal, and a naive sense of justice over matters that often trivial. I've played over 5000 games and I honestly can say I only remember a few times where someone was being severely abusive verbally. Even then, there's the ignore feature. 5000/20 or so ... isn't too bad. My point is: the flaws of the Tribunal outweigh the benefits. Of course there are extreme cases where a player really needs a ban, but I honestly feel Riot should be the one making that decision. They're the only who can view all the data.

Quote:
You also need to realize that while the carrot approach may work fairly well whatever Riot decideds to give away for free is something that they cannot make a profit from. At the end of the day they are still a company that needs to turn a profit. I see other problems with this approach as well. Namely abusing the system after I've recieved my reward and the overall sense of entitlement that people tend to get when rewards are handed out.

Dont get me wrong, I think that there is a place for the carrot approach within the structure of a corporate, money-making goal but I believe that you still need a stick (and from my view you need a MUCH bigger stick than a carrot... that's a different discussion though) and that you need to keep the carrots small enough that it isnt going to bother your bottom line.
I'm not asking Riot to give anything away for free. Here's my idea. "The MVP." At the end of each match, players vote on a player who they feel was the MVP of the game. They can't vote on themselves. This is only one idea.


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Magus Crow

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Well... I play ranked very rarely and normals maybe 3 or 4 times a week myself (on a different account) and have something like 500 games played all said. From my perspecive almost every last one of them had someone raging at someone for something and it is for that reason alone that I typically avoid the PvP aspects of the game. The argument that everyone is doing it doesnt excuse the behavior and I really think that we, as a community, should try to do better than this. We dont accept it walking down the street why should we accept it just because its the internet?

Seeing as the tribunal works on a majority concensus I have a hard time giving your argument that it works off any form of spite or reprisal any credance. Certainly there are going to be some that are going to do this but but there is almost certainly an equal amount that are going to counterbalance this by 'trolling the system'. You also need to remember that the tribunal process works much the same as the report process does: the more faulty decisions you make the less weight your opinion carries within the system. Over time the people who are here only for spite, reprisal or trolling are going to be weeded out by simply not having their voice count for anything.

I'm not exactly clear on what you mean when you say ' a false sense of justice'. I'd like for you to expound upon this a bit before I respond.

I do however agree that we need more data at our disposal when judging a case. Some of these cases are pretty cut and dry one way or the other but I've found that there are several where I just dont know (and am forced to skip) and think that a bit more information would clear things up. As I said before adding in pre and post game chat as well as giving us the opportunity to veiw a game replay would all be great features to add. From what I understand the pre and post game chat thing is being worked on while the replay thing probably will not be implemented anytime soon.

Riot has stated on several occasions that they do random reviews on timebans and that every permaban is reviewed. In the end Riot is doing what you want them to in a limited compacity, it just seems to me that you disagree with how they are going about it and the amount of punishment they are distributing. For the record I disagree too. I feel that there should be MORE warnings and bans being thrown out, not less.

What's the point of this 'MVP'? It doesnt get you anything at the end of the day other than bragging rights and only among the 9 other people that you just played a match with. Ultimatly it seems like little more than a chance for people to stroke their own egos and I believe there is PLENTY of that already going on in the game (side note: premades and trolls will likely abuse this anyway).


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