The Problem with balancing an AD caster item

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Guardman

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Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At that point - I'd honestly just consider whether or not AD casters need tuning on their kits if *that's* what they need to get by.
I hate to say it, but if adding AD Caster items means that they are weaker because other champions will be able to use them better then I hate to say it but AD Caster's need to be looked at.

I don't think that it needs to go that far. Instead you should ask yourself the following:

1. Does adding AD Casters item make them stronger or does it just add options.

2. Does adding an AD Caster item cause only a few non-caster champs like Lee Sin (who could arguably called an AD Caster) and Udyr to be stronger, or is it every bruiser.

If it just adds options and makes a few champions stronger then I think having non-casters get it is fine. Caster itemization is beyond bad and needs help. I remember the time before Gunblade got the nerfs AD casters were buying it just because they wanted the spell vamp and because it was a cost-effective item on them (relative to other items). That's something that should never happen.


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The SHP

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Kind of - but the item looks something like this:

Passive: Increases physical spell damage by X% if you're melee.

At that point - I'd honestly just consider whether or not AD casters need tuning on their kits if *that's* what they need to get by.
it *is* a problem with their kits... it's a problem with the fact that they're given scaling based on a stat that also benefits the auto-attacks that every champion has. And, assuming the scalings on said abilities aren't complete overkill, champs that can get by on auto-attacking are ALWAYS going to eventually get more benefit from the same AD, because auto-attacks are always going to be on a lower cd and auto-attacks are always going to be able to get multiplicatively higher scaling through crit. And on the ranged carries that would want AD items as well, those auto-attacks will generally have longer range, too.

It's just the way things are going to happen as long as AD is used as the scaling source for both. To me it seems that the 'reasonable' ways to go about dealing with it would be:

A) changing their AD scalings to AP and creating a whole mess of physical-damage-based AP items (which creates issues for champs like Riven whose kits involve auto-attacking as well, amongst other issues),

B) creating that differentiation between ranged and melee in items (or rather, differentiation between AD caster and dps, but that really would be just banning items from certain champs... differentiating by melee/ranged lines instead is a close analog isn't so explicitly exclusive)

or C) weakening ranged dps's scaling through things like crit, so that it's acceptable for them to get the 'greater' benefits of hypothetical AD caster items (since ranged dps do start out weaker and would have less room to outscale if their scaling was dropped)


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PallasAthens

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiz Khalifa View Post
ad caster is the most ridiculous stupidest term ever created by the atrocity that is the LoL community.

just because someone uses his skills as main source of damage doesn't make him a caster. skills are not magic. casting is a word used for casting SPELLS.

call it fighter or something that makes sense. jesus
So I guess the casters at tourneys are busy casting spells at players.


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Kittah4

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by aceofsween View Post
Reading over this Xypherous, it seems like you've set yourself up for a paradox...

On one hand, you seem to agree there is a need for such an item. (I'm assuming you wouldn't waste your time talking about it in such great length otherwise.) On the other hand though, one of your counter arguments is that this only makes the item core to your build and requires those types of champions to buy it. To me, my question in response is... Isn't that the point? You've admitted that these champions tend to fall off the map at the late game, and so a late-game item that prevents that sounds ideal. I'm not sure if you're worried about the illusion of choice here, but it seems to me that if you design an item specifically to address the so-called problem, then you're correct in thinking it would become core to these characters. You're also correct in thinking that it would be just as good to change the characters to make them more viable. Those are two different paths to the same goal.

On the note about an item... I can think of a pretty unique effect that when paired with the proper stats would make a huge difference for an AD Caster like Riven or Pantheon, but wouldn't be well liked on AD Carries like Graves or Corki. A shadow mimic effect for abilities that deals 40% of the damage of your abilities. The stats could be along the lines of AD, ArPen, CDR, and/or HP. If AD Casters derive most of their power from their abilities, which you say falls off, then items that strengthen those abilities should be better on them than any other champion, unless other champions abilities are actually on par with the AD Casters. If that's the case, you might as well just buff the AD Casters, because their defining power source shouldn't be equivalent to that of other champions.

Could a champion like Corki or Ezreal make good use of this item? Sure, but I don't really know if it's ideal. Trinity Force gives much the same effect (bonus damage when you cast), but the stats are generally better across the board for those champions. Would it work on those like Lee Sin or Mundo? Again, this goes back to the point I was bring up earlier. If AD Casters don't have more powerful abilities than their Fighter counterparts, that is a completely different problem that needs to be addressed as it is their abilities that AD Casters should be getting their power from. If that's not the case though, then I'm sure it would still be a good item, but perhaps not as ideal (AD Casters would get more damage from their abilities, therefore do more damage with this item).
That item has a neat sounding effect and I wonder how well it would balance. Giving an extra percent buff to skill damage sounds pretty great and might indeed help late game.


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BuzzJack

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Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Kind of - but the item looks something like this:

Passive: Increases physical spell damage by X% if you're melee.

At that point - I'd honestly just consider whether or not AD casters need tuning on their kits if *that's* what they need to get by.
Doesn't Ghostblade do something similar? Where it's only good on melee, because only they can get the full 8 second active.

It's kind of odd.


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Raz al Ghul

Member

08-09-2012

Why not recalculate AD casters so that their abilities scale off their entire AD rather than bonus AD, or split up the damage somehow, and then create an item that amplifies ratios or something to that affect? This way you can keep bruisers and ranged AD as they are with abilities either AP, and thus not affected, or with extra damage strictly calculated off their bonus AD. You also can continue to make more AD casters and just program their skills in this way.

An example of an item that could use this would do something like increase bonus damage on abilities by say 120%, where it would be 120% of a small value on bruisers and AD carries, but Deathcapesque on the AD caster due to massive values.


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IS149c9d0730e8b88ab7fc5

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
What if, Xyph, you gave an AD Caster item an extreme amount of Mana that made it cost inefficient for AD Carries (seeing as they're more AA reliant), but AD Casters loved it?

You know, like Manamune, except I won't get yelled at for saying I ever took it on a champion ever.

Also, regardless of how other champs might do the unthinkable sin of using an item for another type of champ, I still want my AD/Spellvamp item.
Because making an awesome AD caster items with mana causes AD casters like Renekton, Riven and Garen to all miss out?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Passive: Increases physical spell damage by X% if you're melee.
I feel like Urgot would be missing out :S.

Why not go the Turtle Stance route? Unique passive: basic attacks can no longer crit.

It would make it undesirable for ranged carries.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-09-2012
13 of 30 Riot Posts

Quote:
On one hand, you seem to agree there is a need for such an item. (I'm assuming you wouldn't waste your time talking about it in such great length otherwise.) On the other hand though, one of your counter arguments is that this only makes the item core to your build and requires those types of champions to buy it.
There is a couple of changes that might do it - but I don't think it's at the item or champion level. Such a change would be too big to do while we're on the ramp up to finals. It'd be like rewriting the rules to a sport while the world series is going on.

If you want to know what I'm churning on is that I think some cleaner systems level changes are what's required here - testing on this internally.


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BattleCruiser55

Member

08-09-2012

Posting under Xypherous. Im a sad person.


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Ganondunk

Member

08-09-2012

Would this be broken? Brutalizer + hextech revolver + 800ish recipe = 30AD 15CDR 15SV 20ARMPEN passive: casting spells gain 10ARMPEN for 3 seconds (maximum 4 stacks)

Being legendary item tier