Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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KSHarrison

Senior Member

07-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazdoc View Post
its funny how people can seriously think that Riot is in the business of releasing OP champs when there are just as many super weak champs released too. Or has everyone so quickly forgot release Yorick, Skarner, and Sejuani? People aren't talking about Draven, Varus, or Xerath like they're OP, either. At least, nobody you can take seriously.

Keep on believing in your crazy conspiracies, though.
+1


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Nerd Bird

Senior Member

07-14-2012

removing flash?


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Blubberburg

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Member

07-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chorus View Post
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...d.php?t=306689

I would love to point out Riot has closed this thread because their community failed to downvote it to oblivion, and their system didn't work for sliencing the outcries.

Not even a post explaining why; nothing. Just a closure, because they have nothing to say but their 180 turn on their own words.
i read the post in context, it was a reply to an idiot trying to say its not fun escaping a 5 man gank... when i read his comment it sounded like a joke.
Besides they nerfed flash to whats more acceptable levels, talking about a random thread based on whats mostly an out of context term on a joke just sounds dumb


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FraggingBard

Senior Member

07-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazdoc View Post
its funny how people can seriously think that Riot is in the business of releasing OP champs when there are just as many super weak champs released too. Or has everyone so quickly forgot release Yorick, Skarner, and Sejuani? People aren't talking about Draven, Varus, or Xerath like they're OP, either. At least, nobody you can take seriously.
Yorick can push a lane pretty hard, Skarner wasn't bad but copped a small buff/big nerf round, Sej can CC an entire team but deals out no damage. The CC is worth it though and always has been. Xerath wasn't bad when he came out, the ability to punch someone who's hugging their turret was hilariously effective. Kind of slacked off as now we have champions just diving and doing a better job. Didn't Xe get a nerf after he came out because he was too armoured and ";_; I can't insta kill the mage, waaaa" threads erupted? Varus and Draven...


Yeah... Cool champions, but on the weaker end. Very cool though.


It's not that the champions are OP (Not all the time anyway, sometimes it's just numbers like when Fizz proc'd his DoT and wasted teams), it's that we're a semi-imaginative bunch who are oftentimes able to come up with an original idea. Usually a stupid idea, but sometimes it turns out to be effective enough to make the champion seem difficult. Or we just don't know how to counter it, the different game modes have different effects too. Play a blind pick Normal back when Trynd was all the rage and go in with Flash/Teleport, no Ignite and no way of figuring out how to counter a full crit page because you weren't aware he was carrying one. Now everyone carries Flash/Ignite, knows that the active on Executioners Blade will lower their healing and Trynd sobs on the sidelines while Darius goes around ulting everyone. Soon enough we'll start playing cautiously and not getting down to a level where he can just waste us like a melee Karthus ult.

Could whine about how effective the CC Zyra has is, but should probably just buy Mercury's and nerf Irelia again.


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TehMightyMidget

Senior Member

07-28-2012

At least 5 of these apply to Darius. Thanks for releasing him, btw.


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OMGNINJA

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Senior Member

07-29-2012

Holy necro batman!


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DoctorMcPain

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazdoc View Post
its funny how people can seriously think that Riot is in the business of releasing OP champs when there are just as many super weak champs released too. Or has everyone so quickly forgot release Yorick, Skarner, and Sejuani? People aren't talking about Draven, Varus, or Xerath like they're OP, either. At least, nobody you can take seriously.

Keep on believing in your crazy conspiracies, though.
Riot explicitly said they were buffing Orianna even though she was fine competitively because noobs couldn't stomp well enough with her. Then they buffed Orianna after a botched free week. Buffed twice. Because evidently she didn't sell enough upon her first buff and people weren't convinced yet. Now she's basically in every EU game and overall broken OP.

When I read about this I've quit League after two years and... pretty much 1000€ spent on it, as Orianna was pretty much all I played and I liked so much the fact she was very fun and balanced. Then Riot basically kicks me in the nuts and just sells her away. I can't stand a game that's balanced upon these ****ty guidelines. If you wanna call this game a competitive game, an e-sport, then have the decency to balance on competitive play.

I don't regret having left at all 'cause I've started playing DOTA 2 and I can say with confidence that

1) DOTA is way more balanced and varied than League, despite all the bull**** in this thread.

2) DOTA is more FUN than League, even when you're on the receiving end of the oh-so-anti-fun patterns. That's because the game is deep, and something that Riot never mentions is that the "burden" of knowledge enables you to make spectacular and refined plays just because you're breaking a complex pattern. And this can happen at either super low level or pro level, it's something that scales with people's competence. League of Legends has been literally flattened out, there's nothing positive about flattening out a competitive game.

I'll just give you one example. Of course you wanna downvote 'cause I'm bashing on Riot but take a look at this first.

You can hook allies with Pudge's hook (Blitz's hook). Also, there's a hero who can replicate the last spell cast by an enemy. Riot would have ditched both ideas because of the bull**** anti-patterns.
But when you put these things together in DOTA, this can happen.
Now please tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't want to be able to do this in League.
Tell me with a straight face that this isn't exciting and pro as heck.

3) League started out as a great, promising game and Riot has decided to sell out on it. I can't take League seriously as an e-sport anymore. When you look at this game from the outside, you really see how badly Riot has dropped the ball. No new mechanics in more than one year, a lot of problems still unsolved, the game still relies completely on Flash, too much snowballing and no comebacks, too many overpowered champions that Riot just cycles out because they can't deal with balancing their game seriously. Champions look like Final Fantasy characters, everything looks kewl but where's the content?

This is coming from someone who was literally in love with this game. I really, really hope Riot abandons their current plans because they're seriously butchering what could be a great game.

What really brings me down is how everyone is supporting Riot blindly no matter what because they're just driven by fanaticism. I can understand people love this game, but you could have so much more if you just realized. Riot bashes a lot on DOTA when they have no right to talk **** on anything, their game is horribly flawed and most people know about it too - it's just that according to Riot, that's as good as it gets.
Bull****.

You have no idea what you're missing out on, guys. People in this game always wanna feel entitled about stupid things, well you should feel entitled for Riot to adopt a different design pattern. That would be possibly the only seriously good thing the community could ask for.


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Gandalftheegrey

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Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMcPain View Post
Riot explicitly said they were buffing Orianna even though she was fine competitively because noobs couldn't stomp well enough with her. Then they buffed Orianna after a botched free week. Buffed twice. Because evidently she didn't sell enough upon her first buff and people weren't convinced yet. Now she's basically in every EU game and overall broken OP.

When I read about this I've quit League after two years and... pretty much 1000€ spent on it, as Orianna was pretty much all I played and I liked so much the fact she was very fun and balanced. Then Riot basically kicks me in the nuts and just sells her away. I can't stand a game that's balanced upon these ****ty guidelines. If you wanna call this game a competitive game, an e-sport, then have the decency to balance on competitive play.

I don't regret having left at all 'cause I've started playing DOTA 2 and I can say with confidence that

1) DOTA is way more balanced and varied than League, despite all the bull**** in this thread.

2) DOTA is more FUN than League, even when you're on the receiving end of the oh-so-anti-fun patterns. That's because the game is deep, and something that Riot never mentions is that the "burden" of knowledge enables you to make spectacular and refined plays just because you're breaking a complex pattern. And this can happen at either super low level or pro level, it's something that scales with people's competence. League of Legends has been literally flattened out, there's nothing positive about flattening out a competitive game.

I'll just give you one example. Of course you wanna downvote 'cause I'm bashing on Riot but take a look at this first.

You can hook allies with Pudge's hook (Blitz's hook). Also, there's a hero who can replicate the last spell cast by an enemy. Riot would have ditched both ideas because of the bull**** anti-patterns.
But when you put these things together in DOTA, this can happen.
Now please tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't want to be able to do this in League.
Tell me with a straight face that this isn't exciting and pro as heck.

3) League started out as a great, promising game and Riot has decided to sell out on it. I can't take League seriously as an e-sport anymore. When you look at this game from the outside, you really see how badly Riot has dropped the ball. No new mechanics in more than one year, a lot of problems still unsolved, the game still relies completely on Flash, too much snowballing and no comebacks, too many overpowered champions that Riot just cycles out because they can't deal with balancing their game seriously. Champions look like Final Fantasy characters, everything looks kewl but where's the content?

This is coming from someone who was literally in love with this game. I really, really hope Riot abandons their current plans because they're seriously butchering what could be a great game.

What really brings me down is how everyone is supporting Riot because they're just driven by fanaticism. I can understand people love this game, but you could have so much more from a game. Riot bashes a lot on DOTA when they have no right to talk **** on anything, their game is horribly flawed.

You have no idea what you're missing out on, guys. People in this game always wanna feel entitled about stupid things, well you should feel entitled for Riot to adopt a different design pattern. That would be possibly the only seriously good thing the community could ask for.

As of now you're just being fed garbage.
Biggest Difference between DoTA and LoL. DoTa is balanced like a single player game (which is tune everything to 11). LoL is balanced like a multi-player game (which is making everything reasonable while still being fun). Neither is wrong or right, just different strokes for different folks.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Hmm well this post did at least clarify what this concept of anti-fun is... though it is an odd concept to consider from a competitive perspective. Sadism seems to me an integral part of competitive gaming, lol. Very cool to see a designer's perspective on gameplay design choices though.


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DoctorMcPain

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by superj2015 View Post
Biggest Difference between DoTA and LoL. DoTa is balanced like a single player game (which is tune everything to 11). LoL is balanced like a multi-player game (which is making everything reasonable while still being fun). Neither is wrong or right, just different strokes for different folks.
You're absolutely wrong... I don't wanna be rude but did you ever play DOTA? Nothing is tuned to 11 in DOTA, the game is a LOT more balanced than League and you rarely see people complain about overpowered heroes because you're actually picking mechanics instead of numbers and it's all up to how well you can make use of those mechanics. Surely if you read heros' skills you will see that their effects are more powerful, but most of those skills don't scale, they have limiting mana costs, and they're in general harder to use. It's League of Legends that's tuned to 11, believe me or not.

As I said, you guys are just driven by fanaticism and you just don't want to reason about things. You could have a better game if you just stopped sucking up to Riot blindly. Did you watch the video in my post? What do you think about it? That stuff happens a lot in DOTA, I'll quote it back so you won't have to read my post (I know you didn't read it when you downvoted and quoted me).

Quote:
I'll just give you one example. Of course you wanna downvote 'cause I'm bashing on Riot but take a look at this first.

You can hook allies with Pudge's hook (Blitz's hook). Also, there's a hero who can replicate the last spell cast by an enemy. Riot would have ditched both ideas because of the bull**** anti-patterns.
But when you put these things together in DOTA, this can happen.
Now please tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't want to be able to do this in League.
Tell me with a straight face that this isn't exciting and pro as heck.