Upcoming Zyra Changes

First Riot Post
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Byakk087

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Eh, I think I can deal with dis.


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DaedricChampion

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonLordRaiden View Post
I play Zyra frequently, and the only nerf I see as to bad is the Ult damage, because it didn't do a whole lot to begin with. I agree with the range and the plant nerfs, as well as the E nerfs (finally!!), but the Ult damage is a little to much.
e was already nerfed on the ratio by .1.


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DreamsOfGrandeur

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Senior Member

08-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztaxas View Post
Certainlyt you lost me here, I accepted the fact you designed Darius because you seemed like a cool guy, but these nerfs.. Are excesive.

MS nerf was not needed, same thing happened with Vayne, She's mobile? Ok, no big deal, theres slow mages and mobile mages. When she has an AoE snare? No, it's impossible to catch her. Mobility is relative.

Plant damage? Ok, plants are strong, seems legit...

Ult Damage and range changes, wait what? Dude, Vladimir is a SHORT RANGE mage fighter with SHORT RANGE on his skills, Zyra is LONG RANGE, if her ult deals too much damage then nerf Cassios ult too, even more damage and a STUN+SLOW, or Lux's, 500+0.75ap and that thing is HUGE and LONG (yes thats what she said). Her ultimate's impact radius is HUGE.

Base damage nerfs? Where are the ratio buff's? You say bursty is alright? No it isnt, Bursty is low base + high ratio so glass cannon works, this is an alround nerf, to tanky and glass cannon. Her ratios are strong enough. She can stack plants and abilities to produce a total AP ratio of 2.4 that rises as high as 3.6 because the plants AAs scale with 0.2 AP

You wan't to balance Zyra?

Make her plants scale with W level, that way people will have to choose between maxing skill or plants for damage.
Raise her mana costs so she can't abuse but combo when needed. That would work if you could dodge her combo easily, but that E makes it impossible to gank her. People run up to her, get snared, and take her Q + Plant turret damage to the face - And there's who way around it - She'll see you coming before you reach her.
Lower base damage, raise ap ratios, her ratios are SUB PAR compared to other mages, like Malzahar. You're not noticing the hidden AP ratios in her plants.

Seriously, these changes were OVER THE BOARD, you may have all the numbers you can get , but I have the GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE, I played her well, I know her well, I'VE COUNTERED HER.
These changes are fine in my opinion. If she needs to be buffed, she can be, so calm down. There are plenty of better Zyra players who probably dunked you but you don't want to admit it.

Until then, you've on the blacklist of Reds.
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Aemys

Senior Member

08-06-2012

I don't like the change. I think it's trying to hit too many things on the head without taking a solid stance on any one aspect that made her too strong.

She isn't supposed to be sustained dps like a Cassiopeia (her original cooldowns are proof of that)- she's supposed to be a combo champ. If I have to land that same combo (which can be quite a bit of work to land properly, not even taking into consideration that she's all skillshots/AoE) two or three times in order to reach max potential when other champs with similar utility can land it once for full potential, there are mistakes being made. It doesn't fit with the idea of combo mage.

Don't give us a combo mage if you're going to give her inherent CDR that gives her cooldowns better than mages that are MEANT to be sustained dps.

I think you have almost entirely missed why she was overpowered. Her AP ratios and base damages were perfectly fine in comparison to other mages, even weaker in most cases.

You SHOULD feel like you're being rewarded for landing all of your skillshots and your combo with burst. It's not like an AP mage taking you from 100 to 0 is a new concept to League of Legends, so why can't Zyra have it? The problem is when you make her naturally able to pull that off every ten seconds.

Where you went wrong is giving her 20% CDR (as I mentioned in a different thread earlier that Morello responded to), because it means that with blue buff, Zyra players have no incentive to buy CDR (as rank 5 W and blue buff give her max CDR). Heck, she doesn't even need to get the 4% CDR mastery because of that. She could build full AP and never worry about cooldowns as long as she's given blue buff.

With the inherent ability to spam her spells (and therefore her combo), her DPS was simply too high. Take away the CDR, make Zyra players have to decide whether to sacrifice flat AP for CDR (and therefore gaining the spam/utility she has now), or build flat damage (with the reward of obvious higher burst, but the downside of having to manage higher cooldowns).

I think this series of changes is overboard, and missing the mark. I feel like it's a Whack-A-Mole nerf where you hit several things on the head aimlessly while missing the underlying issue.

As someone that loves Zyra, I wish I could downvote that post a hundred times because I think you've potentially just put her into niche-counter-pick tier, like Orianna before she got buffed.

EDIT: On another note, suggesting DFG on a combo champ for them to have burst? SERIOUSLY? How much work does a player have to do in order to deal the damage they want to? I'm lucky I use smartcasting, because for newbies landing DFG > E > W > Q > W > R (and then rinse and repeat because you just nerfed her damage) is a lot to ask. I'm very disappointed in this set of nerfs for Zyra. I think you've strayed too far away from what Zyra is supposed to be.


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The Niggest 420

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
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True, the hidden AP Ratios on her plants is still viable


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Aeidan

Junior Member

08-07-2012

RIP zyra


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Aemys

Senior Member

08-07-2012

I keep re-reading the nerfs and am still shaking my head. I'm very disappointed. Like I said in my other post, I think this is just a freak reaction to Zyra OP QQ without much thought other than "let's just bury her into the ground before we take the time to really figure out what the problem is here."

I'm telling you, it was the CDR that made her OP. Not the plants, certainly not the plants scaling off of level, and certainly not her base damages or ratios (ESPECIALLY if you took two seconds out of your day to compare them to other mages in your own game). Combo mages should be rewarded for landing their combo with appropriate burst. She isn't a sustained dps champion, and shouldn't be. Remove the bloody CDR and fix these nerfs.

I wish I could downvote more.

RIP Zyra indeed.


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Xaxas

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Senior Member

08-07-2012

Ok lets see, lets compare her to another combo mage, Malzaha
Q) AoE SILENCE with 300 + 0.8 ap
E) DoT 320 + 0.8 ap
R) SUPRESS with 550 + 1.3 ap

That 1170 Base damage + 2.9 ap, on top of that, theres a Damage to % Max Health pool that hits for 20% + 0.025% ap JUST ON THE ULTI, doesnt count damage prior or after the ulti.

No, I didn't forget the 0.24 ap ratio on plants, nerf it if they need to, they don't need these huge nerfs that become a major crippling, heck, I don't see people whining about Morgana being ungankable or Lux's snare hitting 2 people.


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pamyuriin

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztaxas View Post
Certainlyt you lost me here, I accepted the fact you designed Darius because you seemed like a cool guy, but these nerfs.. Are excesive.

MS nerf was not needed, same thing happened with Vayne, She's mobile? Ok, no big deal, theres slow mages and mobile mages.

Plant damage? Ok, plants are strong, seems legit...

Ult Damage and range changes, wait what? Dude, Vladimir is a SHORT RANGE mage fighter with SHORT RANGE on his skills, Zyra is LONG RANGE, if her ult deals too much damage then nerf Cassios ult too, even more damage and a STUN+SLOW, or Lux's, 500+0.75ap and that thing is HUGE and LONG (yes thats what she said).

Base damage nerfs? Where are the ratio buff's? You say bursty is alright? No it isnt, Bursty is low base + high ratio so glass cannon works, this is an alround nerf, to tanky and glass cannon.

You wan't to balance Zyra?

Make her plants scale with W level, that way people will have to choose between maxing skill or plants for damage.
Raise her mana costs so she can't abuse but combo when needed.
Lower base damage, raise ap ratios, her ratios are SUB PAR compared to other mages, like Malzahar.

Seriously, these changes were OVER THE BOARD, you may have all the numbers you can get , but I have the GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE, I played her well, I know her well, I'VE COUNTERED HER.

Until then, you've on the blacklist of Reds.
your tears are delicious


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PlatypusFang

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Member

08-07-2012

I've never played her but I never found her overpowering or a huge threat in games I've played against her. Guess I'll just try her on free week.