Ranged AD Items - Need more selection

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-30-2012
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
I'm a little confused with what you're trying to say here.
It means you don't try to fight fire with fire, in this case. Making another set of items that gave you Crit/AS/MS/Crit Damage in different amounts across different items would be pointless.

The current distinction between Last Whisper and Black Cleaver isn't really all that meaningful for the AD carry class, for example - simply because they both do the same thing for a carry character - amplify damage vs. armored targets. Even the 'Squishy' vs. 'Tough' distinction that comes up with armor shreds vs. % penetration doesn't really matter because a Carry is expected to output meaningful damage across all targets.

Quote:
I hear what you're saying, that there is a problem when a single build IE/PD/BT is the best choice for all ranged AD carries, but what are your ideas to fix it?
In general, I'm leery of doing things of this magnitude when Season 2 Finals are coming up - that's kind of like rewriting the rules of a sport when the finals are up.

The design philosophy is simple though: Figure out utility axis' that carries could want / Find out what options are so strong such that they starve carries from being able to branch out / Make items that fit along that path. For example, what if an as/MS(!)/Tenacity item existed and PD was instead as/CRIT(!)/ms? PD is the clear winner in damage in this case - but you go with Tenacity item because you want safety above all else. You're making the damage trade-off for safety in that case. What if an item had an active? Guaranteed Crits for 4 seconds, with light AD - now you're spec'ing into dealing burst damage, similar to DFG. (Okay, so that item would be insane). You're now going to pick that item on someone like Ashe or Varus, because they *can* disable the target for X seconds.

But this is all predicated on the fact that the best damage build isn't the best utility build at the same time - so major things would have to change first. Phantom Dancer would have to be fundamentally reworked to not be prime utility x prime damage - and that's a change I don't see us doing lightly / quickly when season 2 finals are this close. I think that's pretty unfair overall to the general competitive scene to rewrite it on the ramp-up to finals.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
I'm a little confused with what you're trying to say here. Are you "okay" with one build path being the clear highest damage path? Or are you not? The "I don't think that it's not wrong" says to me that you think that having a clear cut path is bad, but on the other hand you're saying "just make sure you're not fighting a mirror build," using "just" which is usually used as a "but" scenario for something you agree with.
To clarify:
Yes, Xypherous is saying that it is fine that there is only one optimal damage path. There is an optimal damage path for all champions that will always have the most damage.

The real "problem" with the optimal damage path for carries is that it is also the most optimal UTILITY PATH, because the movespeed from Phantom Dancer's is such a powerful supplement. Movespeed is ironically the best form of personal utility in the entire game. This is why players always take boots, and movespeed is uncommon outside of boots.


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Thryale

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
While this is completely true and varies from carry to carry - I think, in general, IE/PD/(Generic Damage Item) are what people are railing against - rather than the notion that they have itemization options after the two main items.

In general, I don't think that it's not wrong to have one build path be the clear highest damage path conceivable - much like Deathcap is the one clear highest AP damage path. There doesn't need to be obsfucation on this point on what is the highest damage build possible. Just make sure that you're not fighting a build path whose primary strength is damage with yet another build path whose primary strength is damage because that "choice" reduces down to a complicated math problem.

The problem isn't IE/PD deal too much damage and other things need to deal more damage to compensate - the problem is that IE/PD is simultaneously the highest utility and damage path that exists for carries - thus any meaningful kind of utility that you can throw on or spec into - be it resistances, penetration, survivability or crowd control simply pales in the face of just outrunning the enemy team and dealing damage.

Which is odd - because I've explicitly re-stated the problem again in every post.
That being the case, is riot considering nerfing PD? I've tried bringing this up in the @Ezreal thread, but Ez is falling behind in his posts. So I'll bring it up here as well.

In the @Ezreal thread, I pointed out how PD provides too many key stats for ad carries at really high values, and it was for this reason that ad carries rarely ever purchase any other kind of attack speed item.

Does riot have plans on changing PD? Perhaps, introduce a few new items along with a PD change?


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bylobog44

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
But wait, why can't other utility items exist so that carries can build more varied defensive items or spec side utility with their damage? Because Phantom Dancer is ridiculous.

There isn't a single defensive item in the game that equates to 12% move speed on this class. You could think of tons of conceivable utility that AD carries could have or want - but it almost always loses to 12% move speed at the end of the day.

It's kind of a tough problem given how addictive the free mobility is.
I don't think this is true at all. The problem is not that PD is ridiculous as you say, but that the other AD or AS + Utility items are weak. In the situations where they would be useful, you have to trade off the additional utility for anemic offense.

Frozen Mallet - too much HP, too little AD and an unreliable slow.

Wits End - was intended to be an offensive anti-mage item, but without the mana burn is a defensive anti-mage item.

Executioner's Calling - DoT and anti-healing effect is great, but it is a mid-tier item with no upgrade path so occupies and item slot with mediocre offensive stats.

Maw of Malmortius - a pretty good item for some champions in some situations. At least it is a top tier item. End game it uses the item slot that would otherwise be used by QSS/BV/GA.

Ionic Spark - another mid tier item, basically to help poor farming carries and provides some AoE in team fights.

Tiamat - another mid tier item, actually has decent stats but AoE range is too small.


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ZiPS

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Senior Member

07-30-2012

Xypherous, does this mean you or another Riot Designer will be looking at AD carry itemization after season 2?


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

07-30-2012

They recently did nerf the movement speed on PD to 12% from 15%. IT wasn't what many people were thinking which was to make the MS unique but it did enough to making AD carries not have 450+ movement speed after selling boots for a third PD.


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Ruduen

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Senior Member

07-30-2012

I'm curious... What do you think would happen if a similar movement speed buff was added to many of the completed items, instead of existing only on PD?


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Love your posts Xyph. What I'd definitely enjoy seeing:

1) Phantom Dancer turned to more defensive: Formula changed to be Zeal + Kindlegem + Dagger or Brawlers Gloves + X gold. Stats resulting: HP, crit, attack speed, cdr, and move speed. Emphasis remains on the zeal stats, but enough is added via the formula that it is a viable offense item, but has enough $$ spent on health, move speed, and cdr that it is no longer the 'best' choice.

2) New core item for IE synergy added. Builds from Cloak of Agility + 2 Daggers + X Gold. Dual dagger formula prevents the current "build Zeal" step that is so powerful on its own, and forces AD carries to use more item slots (same way that AP carries often do thanks to Rylai's, Lichbane, and/or Morello's Tome. Key part: no defensive stats.

3) 2 more new items that properly mix damage and defense. Frozen Mallet doesn't do this well do to near-total lack of damage stats (20 damage is not enough) and thus gets left out of nearly every AD carry build, despite being so powerful (you just give up too much damage for the slow, better to rely on teammates).

4) 1 new path for gear. Key issue is that when you look at the IE/PD build, no "part" of the build path feels bad. You build a BF Sword, you are happy. You build a Zeal, you're happy. There isn't a better option at either point. Give us some mid-tier items that compete, even if they only build into more hybrid style gear. Right now, if you build a BF sword early for your last hits and harass, you "might as well" finish the IE or PD, because it gives you so much damage, and if you switch gears to aim for utility/defense, you will get zero or almost zero damage (Hexdrinker is great for this against magic, but there is no armor version, and Ionic Spark is underwhelming if you care about the defensive stat).


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Irelia Bot

Senior Member

07-30-2012

You mean if half of the 20% active MS on ghostblade was made passive?

Riven would get away from everything instead of almost everything.


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XVIII The Moon

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bylobog44 View Post
I don't think this is true at all. The problem is not that PD is ridiculous as you say, but that the other AD or AS + Utility items are weak. In the situations where they would be useful, you have to trade off the additional utility for anemic offense.

Frozen Mallet - too much HP, too little AD and an unreliable slow.

Wits End - was intended to be an offensive anti-mage item, but without the mana burn is a defensive anti-mage item.

Executioner's Calling - DoT and anti-healing effect is great, but it is a mid-tier item with no upgrade path so occupies and item slot with mediocre offensive stats.

Maw of Malmortius - a pretty good item for some champions in some situations. At least it is a top tier item. End game it uses the item slot that would otherwise be used by QSS/BV/GA.

Ionic Spark - another mid tier item, basically to help poor farming carries and provides some AoE in team fights.

Tiamat - another mid tier item, actually has decent stats but AoE range is too small.
I agree with this. It isn't that PD is too good of utility, it's that other ad utility is just too weak. There is no low-decent hp and high AD item on SR (no entropy), mainly since Frozen mallet is too much hp for too little AD for a carry.

This is also the issue with bloodrazor I pointed out earlier in the thread. It gives too little ad and the hp shred is countered too easily on the targets you want to hp shred. Increase the AD on Bloodrazer (maybe by 10-20) and you'll see more people start to build it.

All other "carry" items stop at mid-tier and don't upgrade anymore. Wit's end is a great item, too bad it stops mid tier. Give it an upgrade with a BF sword for +50 ad.

Tiamat .... well Tiamat is just Taimat. It needs an upgrade path as well. I actually don't know how you upgrade Tiamat and make it better with out having it result in Tiamat stacking.

Ionic Spark is a very meh item. It, like Tiamat and Wit's end suffers a lack of upgrade path.
Maybe have an upgrade that combines Ionic Spark and Wit's End; giving +90% aspd, 250 health, and and 30 mr with both unique passives. Have it cost 4500 gold (lul no one will get it no matter how much aspd it gives).