Tribunal FAQ

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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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07-29-2012
7 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Future View Post
Lyte, I have three questions for you:

In your professional opinion, would you consider the implementation of "Tribunal Reform Cards" after many players have been permanently banned (some of which having made large changes in their behavior due to the sobering effect of having everything they've ever earned being taken away from them) an oversight of sorts?

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but would you then consider this to be a price for the "greater good" of the community?

Do you believe that "Tribunal Reform Cards" could pick up where, statistically, the "Level 20 Challenge" was found to fail?

EDIT: A fourth, if you don't mind.

What is the bottom line of the Tribunal, to you?
Coming from a past life as a scientist, I don't think releasing Reform Cards a year after the initial Tribunal launch is an oversight. Although crowdsourcing intelligence is an emerging field in the sciences, it's relatively new in the video game industry; no one could be certain if the same concepts from scientific labs applied to a playerbase when different personal value was at risk. When dealing with brand new research and technology like this, you really have to take it very slow and iterate, iterate, iterate.

The Reform Card could potentially improve behaviors at a far greater rate than a Level 20 Challenge ever could. However, we'll have to see what the data shows over the next few weeks and months.

Ultimately, Team Player Behavior & Justice's motto is to ensure League of Legends has the most sportsmanlike community in online games. The Tribunal is only one feature in the grand scheme of things with two core goals:

1) Help players become more sportsmanlike by identifying their problematic behaviors
2) Identify players who are unwilling to change even in the face of evidence so we can reduce the negative impact they have on others


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Dead Future

Senior Member

07-29-2012

First, I'd like to thank you for responding to my post. The following is what I am most curious about, however.

Does Team Player Behavior & Justice, at the very least, acknowledge that its undertakings in the direct application of science to humans have and will undoubtedly fail to appropriately handle the smallest statistic of players - the handful in which the conditions were, for whatever reason, not set to fulfill the potential of behavior reformation?

To the system as I know it to be, there is no grey area. It would put my mind at ease to know that even though the statistics are what they are, you still know that someone somewhere will be affected by this in a way that could have been prevented through influential processes you failed to create.

It's easier to say, "The system isn't perfect," than it is to tell yourself and others, "There will be players that we deny access to the game, the likes of which were not properly influenced to change their behavior but could've been."

If nothing else, you must admit that player behavior would have evolved differently since the implementation of the Tribunal if the Reform Card System would have been a part of it from day one.

I admire your science, but as a human in regard to the idea of "Justice" I have a Lawful Good alignment.

Here's hoping I haven't provoked a, "We can't save them all, and quite frankly it's not our job to do so," attitude through my curiosity.


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Lyte

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07-29-2012
8 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Future View Post
First, I'd like to thank you for responding to my post. The following is what I am most curious about, however.

Does Team Player Behavior & Justice, at the very least, acknowledge that its undertakings in the direct application of science to humans have and will undoubtedly fail to appropriately handle the smallest statistic of players - the handful in which the conditions were, for whatever reason, not set to fulfill the potential of behavior reformation?

To the system as I know it to be, there is no grey area. It would put my mind at ease to know that even though the statistics are what they are, you still know that someone somewhere will be affected by this in a way that could have been prevented through influential processes you failed to create.

It's easier to say, "The system isn't perfect," than it is to tell yourself and others, "There will be players that we deny access to the game, the likes of which were not properly influenced to change their behavior but could've been."

If nothing else, you must admit that player behavior would have evolved differently since the implementation of the Tribunal if the Reform Card System would have been a part of it from day one.

I admire your science, but as a human in regard to the idea of "Justice" I have a Lawful Good alignment.

Here's hoping I haven't provoked a, "We can't save them all, and quite frankly it's not our job to do so," attitude through my curiosity.
People who knew me as scientist know how realistic I am. Could some players over the past year have gotten Reform Cards and avoided permabans? Definitely. How large is that number? I have a rough estimate and it's a very, very small percentage. However, it's still a number above zero. In the end, launching the Reform Cards after sufficient data had been collected was the right call. If we had launched Reform Cards with the launch of the Tribunal and crowd-sourcing intelligence did not pan out... we could have done far more damage than good with these cards. Imagine if players were sent to the Tribunal in 1 report. Imagine if players were then sent Reform Cards with absolutely no evidence of any negative behavior. Imagine the confusion about why they were receiving Reform Cards and what they should be doing to avoid future ones. In Psychology, ambiguous, confusing feedback is sometimes even more damaging than no feedback at all.

In saying this, I would never say "it's not our job to reform them all." A recent weekend, I genuinely thought a player was permabanned when they did not deserve it--I rushed into the offices to check the accounts, pull up models about his behavioral trajectory along with Tribunal records and chat logs. Unfortunately, he deserved his permaban

-_-


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TenienDaithen

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
A recent weekend, I genuinely thought a player was permabanned when they did not deserve it--I rushed into the offices to check the accounts, pull up models about his behavioral trajectory along with Tribunal records and chat logs. Unfortunately, he deserved his permaban
You rock. Good lookin' out, even if it turned out that you didn't need to.


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Dead Future

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Sitting at a desk all day when I'm home, and observing what problems occur between people when I'm not, I've grown to deny others my respect. When I play League of Legends, regardless of whether or not people are consciously choosing to do so, the negative behavior affects my own.

It's gotten to the point where, instead of saying anything at all, be it in person or online, I've found myself just deleting everything I had planned on submitting. "Why do this when the only thing I'm guaranteed is (likely destructive and hurtful) criticism from people I don't even know?"

I'm not the only player that's just sat down and thought, "Riot doesn't care." I'm more than certain I'll probably end up saying it aloud to myself or thinking it again.

I just thought you should know, though, that for once, I was able to feel that someone did care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
A recent weekend, I genuinely thought a player was permabanned when they did not deserve it--I rushed into the offices to check the accounts, pull up models about his behavioral trajectory along with Tribunal records and chat logs.
Thank you for your time, Lyte.


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Abdelazar

Senior Member

07-30-2012

Lyte, I have a few questions.

As I am lvl 23, I am new to this tribunal business, so sorry if these questions are dumb.

1) Is there a way to view the number of cases I have been credited IP for? Or to know if I have been credited IP?

2) I notice that you mention a case limit in the FAQ on the first page. What is it, and how does that work?

That's all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance!


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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07-30-2012
9 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abdelazar View Post
Lyte, I have a few questions.

As I am lvl 23, I am new to this tribunal business, so sorry if these questions are dumb.

1) Is there a way to view the number of cases I have been credited IP for? Or to know if I have been credited IP?

2) I notice that you mention a case limit in the FAQ on the first page. What is it, and how does that work?

That's all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance!
For now, there is no way to see your case history in the Tribunal and the IP you've been credited for. You should receive e-mails every few weeks outlining the cases you got correctly and the IP you received though.

There is currently a 15-case limit per day for most Tribunal users.


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WelcomeToKS

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Senior Member

07-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Coming from a past life as a scientist, I don't think releasing Reform Cards a year after the initial Tribunal launch is an oversight. Although crowdsourcing intelligence is an emerging field in the sciences, it's relatively new in the video game industry; no one could be certain if the same concepts from scientific labs applied to a playerbase when different personal value was at risk. When dealing with brand new research and technology like this, you really have to take it very slow and iterate, iterate, iterate.

The Reform Card could potentially improve behaviors at a far greater rate than a Level 20 Challenge ever could. However, we'll have to see what the data shows over the next few weeks and months.

Ultimately, Team Player Behavior & Justice's motto is to ensure League of Legends has the most sportsmanlike community in online games. The Tribunal is only one feature in the grand scheme of things with two core goals:

1) Help players become more sportsmanlike by identifying their problematic behaviors
2) Identify players who are unwilling to change even in the face of evidence so we can reduce the negative impact they have on others
I think Reform cards help unite the community and better define what is and isn't acceptable. Have you been sourcing the topics replying to Reform card recipients on the forums for the Tribunal FAQ? One good question to include should be "I believe people should have thicker skin regarding namecalling and cursewords." or something to that effect. It is a fairly common occurrence that people come to League of Legends from an FPS or other competitive game where there are next to no guidelines on behavior and have learned that the internet is a place to behave in any way that you want. MMORPGs have codes of conduct that describe how a person should behave(moreso the private servers) with clear consequences presented up front. The Summoner's Code presently fails to do that and has the air of being unbelievable to most new players. "Can they really expect people on the internet to behave better here than other places?"

These are the main causes of toxicity that i've seen. Age plays a factor as well because if you grew up in the midst of the WoW era, you never saw a game where people were all playing together and being relatively nice. IE: Everquest.
Questions to add:
"Should people have thicker skin regarding words?" or "How seriously should I take name-calling/harassment?"
"Can we really expect people on League of Legends to behave better than the general internet population?"


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Abdelazar

Senior Member

07-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
For now, there is no way to see your case history in the Tribunal and the IP you've been credited for. You should receive e-mails every few weeks outlining the cases you got correctly and the IP you received though.

There is currently a 15-case limit per day for most Tribunal users.
Thanks!


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Amuq the Native

Senior Member

07-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Future View Post
In your professional opinion, would you consider the implementation of "Tribunal Reform Cards" after many players have been permanently banned (some of which having made large changes in their behavior due to the sobering effect of having everything they've ever earned being taken away from them) an oversight of sorts?

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but would you then consider this to be a price for the "greater good" of the community?
As a member of the "I respect the Summoner's Code and try to be a positive force in the game" club, I am angry when reading this.
I am very, very angry when I read this.

Call me intolerant if you will, but that's how it is. I am really tired of toxic players ruining the game I'm trying to enjoy, time and again. What I want is to get rid of toxic players. I want them OUT OF MY GAME.

I want the Tribunal to hand bans to people who deserve it. I want it to be a community cleaner : I want it to take out the trash, the 1 jerk in 10 people, so the other 9, the decent people who can actually behave correctly in social situations, can enjoy this awesome game.

I couldn't care less about the fate of the guy who gets thrown out. There were clear rules; the guy didn't respect them; too bad, maybe next time you won't be such a jerkface.
All the rest is icing on the cake. It's nice to be lenient; it's nice to allow people to reform; it's nice to be able to educate people and make them become non-toxic, if not positive; it's nice that there is a team working on this at Riot. I am all for helping people become better, and I really respect the work Lyte and his team are doing here.
But it is all a bonus. They don't have to do this.

I, for one, would be perfectly happy with a very strict, purely eliminatory system, without the possibility of reforming. You broke the rules, you get thrown out, period. You blew your chance. We are 9 better human beings here, please care for us instead of the toxic one.

The Tribunal team does't do this. The Tribunal team is going out of its way to be helpful and allow people to reform and become better people.
And you, Dead Future, and people like you, are pointing out flaws in what they do, insinuating that it's not enough, or not fast enough; that people will be left out, people who could have reformed.
Well, you know what ? Too bad for them. You have no business accusing the Tribunal team; they are already doing far more than banned people deserve.

I even find it highly suspicious that you are trying to make people who have been convicted of toxicity, i.e. culprits, appear like victims. Maybe you have something on your conscience ?

Yes, this post is aggressive. I am not like this in game. I am a nice guy who's tired of being shat on. Nice guys have the right to get angry when they see obvious BS ; this is why Pendrakills have such success, it's the only time when we actually feel we are getting fair retribution.