Darius OP??? prove it?

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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

07-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamserX View Post
i'm not saying the numbers are bad, i'm pointing out how inaccurate the whole

"can do 1000+ true damage with little to no gold income" is

To even hit that you would have had to land 5 attacks on someone and if that happens it's their fault, there's no one you can deal 1k + true damage on 5 targets within 10 seconds, it's just not possible and that's what the perception is
I was just saying that it wouldn't really make a difference. Because if he's ulting you with the expectation of you dieing its probably your fault or you've been outplayed.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

07-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
Your logic is flawed besides, the way your arguing is not point counter point you have just made a lot of vague statements about poor play. Which is subjective. I have seen all those videos too and i don't consider a lot of what you call mistakes, mistakes. I won't say they are NO mistakes or poor play, but that is not the soul reason for the penatkills. He is OP for one simple reason he can do 1000 plus unmitigated damage with little to no gold accumulation and can keep doing it on no cooldown. All it takes is 1 decent AOE to go off and thats it Darius can jump to victory. There is more then enough video out there to prove that he CAN do that much damage fed or not.

No one is going to focus down a tank Darius and ignore the AD or AP carry, it wont happen, and with all the aoe in the game the chance of 3-4 players being below 1000 health during a team fight is pretty high.

All they need to do is remove the refresh on kill and Darius would be fine or even limit it to 2 kills then go on cool down.
Doooooood cmonnnnnn let's see videos and toss logic at each other. Pick any video you want. We'll see just how flawed my logic is when you show me that disgustingly OP darius moment.


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Nightfallyn

Senior Member

07-24-2012

I wont get drawn in to the little farce of a game. No matter what video is posted and even if I manage to convince you that "X and Y isn't a mistake you will just use "outplayed" card, which is completely subjective since these vids are 1-2 minutes snippets of much longer games. Even if that Darius is 0/10/0 and 6 lvls under and should in no way be able to even attempt a penta-kill.

Its an argument no one can win because the basis of it is just opinion to begin with.

Oh you are right with little to no farm he would only be doing 700-800 per ulti and 1000 damage on the ulti requires 200 bonus AD. Which is easy to do with just 1 Blood Thirster and Wriggles and Maw of Malmortius and AD runes. Wriggles and Maw are quite tanky as well so with 3 other tank items he would be really hard to kill and still doing 1000 true damage.

1600 wriggles
3300 maw
3000 thirster

So for 7900 gold which is **** farm for solo top or jungle by 16 you hit 1000 on the ulti. This is just to hit 1000 remember he is doing 700-900 after he hits 16 most of the time anyway.

See I will give you facts that aren't subjective. So lets say he has been shut down totally. Only has say:

Hexdrinker 1400
Merctreads 1200
Dorans blade x2 475x2 950
Wriggles 1600

25 ad from hex 20 from the dorans 23 from wriggle and say just the red for AD runes which is 9 and 4 from mastery.
Total 81 bonus AD there plus the armor magic resist health.

At .75 ad ratio his ulti now does 400 true damage x100% with 5 stacks of his passive which is all three of his skills with 2 auto attacks in between. That 800 true damage with just 5150 gold and tanky. In my worst games I can farm more then 5k gold and I am not that good. So he can do that 800 endlessly as long is there is a champion under 800 health. So your trying to tell me that being able to do roughly 4000 (800x5 champs) damage after being totally dominated isn't OP?

Just that number alone tells it all, sure he has no escapes, sure he "can" be focused. Sure there is CC and other things but CC works for every champ and none of them have the ability to do 4000 "TRUE DAMAGE" in a team fight with very little farm. That is why Darius will remain OP. Being outplayed or making mistakes doesn't even factor in the equation but with his ult those things are compounded exponentially.


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Vencu

Senior Member

07-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
I wont get drawn in to the little farce of a game. No matter what video is posted and even if I manage to convince you that "X and Y isn't a mistake you will just use "outplayed" card, which is completely subjective since these vids are 1-2 minutes snippets of much longer games. Even if that Darius is 0/10/0 and 6 lvls under and should in no way be able to even attempt a penta-kill.

Its an argument no one can win because the basis of it is just opinion to begin with.

Oh you are right with little to no farm he would only be doing 700-800 per ulti and 1000 damage on the ulti requires 200 bonus AD. Which is easy to do with just 1 Blood Thirster and Wriggles and Maw of Malmortius and AD runes. Wriggles and Maw are quite tanky as well so with 3 other tank items he would be really hard to kill and still doing 1000 true damage.

1600 wriggles
3300 maw
3000 thirster

So for 7900 gold which is **** farm for solo top or jungle by 16 you hit 1000 on the ulti. This is just to hit 1000 remember he is doing 700-900 after he hits 16 most of the time anyway.

See I will give you facts that aren't subjective. So lets say he has been shut down totally. Only has say:

Hexdrinker 1400
Merctreads 1200
Dorans blade x2 475x2 950
Wriggles 1600

25 ad from hex 20 from the dorans 23 from wriggle and say just the red for AD runes which is 9 and 4 from mastery.
Total 81 bonus AD there plus the armor magic resist health.

At .75 ad ratio his ulti now does 400 true damage x100% with 5 stacks of his passive which is all three of his skills with 2 auto attacks in between. That 800 true damage with just 5150 gold and tanky. In my worst games I can farm more then 5k gold and I am not that good. So he can do that 800 endlessly as long is there is a champion under 800 health. So your trying to tell me that being able to do roughly 4000 (800x5 champs) damage after being totally dominated isn't OP?

Just that number alone tells it all, sure he has no escapes, sure he "can" be focused. Sure there is CC and other things but CC works for every champ and none of them have the ability to do 4000 "TRUE DAMAGE" in a team fight with very little farm. That is why Darius will remain OP. Being outplayed or making mistakes doesn't even factor in the equation but with his ult those things are compounded exponentially.
so you want him to get blown up by ad? got it


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Nightfallyn

Senior Member

07-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamserX View Post
so you want him to get blown up by ad? got it
For only 1300 more which brings his grand total to 6400 which is still in totally shutdown range you add wardens mail to that build. Or if they are heavy ad get ninja tabi instead.
Nice try though.


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Vencu

Senior Member

07-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
For only 1300 more which brings his grand total to 6400 which is still in totally shutdown range you add wardens mail to that build. Or if they are heavy ad get ninja tabi instead.
Nice try though.
LOL wardens mail totally shuts down ad? yea OK, dunno what world you live in

you still wouldn't have ANY Health with that build, you would still melt, that +50 armor from wardens mail wouldn't do much


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Aria Sachou

Senior Member

07-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
0:07 malzahar appears and begins attacking. Has most of his health and takes a poke, darius just kinda doing his thing.
0:08 fiddle and sona vs mal. This is doable, but nunu appears.
0:09 riven appears, this can be done
0:10 mal is at half health riven is there and his teammates are arriving. He just flashes out with fiddle chasing
0:11 fiddles sees darius, not saying he panicked but he flashed away from nunu who was coming but he further separated himself from the team in front of a wounded mal.


He flashed out because who would want to vs the rest of the enemy team with only 2 allies vsing, nun, malz, and darius? You are forgetting that Malz and Nunu have pretty strong ultis that can shut down the damage taken
Not to mention fiddles isn't a tank, he can't withstand that even with his drain.

0:12 fiddles is in trouble, cait is ignored, ashe and talon arrive. Sona tries to heal but its too late
0:13 talon has a chance to assassinate mal, while the others are focused on nunu, cait is still being ignored. Fiddles has taken heavy damage another poke will kill him he can't be saved. The ignored caitlyn starts attacking
0:14 Caitlyn is firing into the enemy team cluster as they focus nunu. Nunu runs towards talon as he takes mal down.
0:15-0:25 talon and the dieing fiddles quickly take down mal, this was good, and talon is at almost full health and took a hit from darius. Wisely he chose to retreat instead of staying to 1v1 a bruiser with an assassin while cait, still ignored was firing at them and nnunu was nearby. Darius finishes fiddle off and nunu tries to get away from riven, ashe, and sona who are giving him a beating. The chasers now make their bad judgment call.

0:26 talon is running from nunu, nunu is running after talon and away from riven, ashe, and sona. Darius is just kindof standing there autoattacking whatever he can as they come and go. Caitlyn is following and shooting still.
0:27 darius has hit riven and goes after him alongside ashe(squishy team carry) and sona(squishy team support mage) who are also chasing nunu(aka still focusing the tank)...
They are going for an enemy at half hp instead of going after the ad carry far behind darius and if they ignored Nunu, Nunu can easily come back and pop shot with snowballs

alongside...caitlyn is right behind and shooting into the fishbarrel still ignored.
Yea because she is 1. very far away, 2. Darius between

0:28 darius spins his axe hitting 2 squishies that were focusing a tank.
0:29 darius is still attacking their carry but they successfully kill the tank they were focusing. Ashe stops to poke darius, perhaps realizing she was going to die.
0:30 riven turns around to try and help ashe who isn't going to make it and has sacrificed herself to put frost on darius.
0:31 darius ults ashe caitlyn is still ignored. The remaining three come to help as riven tries to take down darius

after this talon makes the smart decision to pay attention to caitlyn but she gets several shots off on riven giving darius a chance to hit her and burst her down. Squishy sona has now been left alone and talon is finally attacking the carry but its too late.


You and the vid poster have opposite calls of judgement.
The video poster said because Talon didn't attack him he got to stay in the fight and continuously damage them. But You said that Cait was the better choice but it was too late.
Meaning if they focused Darius, Caitlyn would of got both of them.
If they went after Cait, well Darius wins.


The fight was already lost here, not because of improper judgement, the focus of the team was properly done, they targetted people with potentially fight changing ultis. But not enough to stop Darius rampage because of his damage output and tankiness.

0:39 Another bad judgement call. Sona goes up next to darius with a third of her health missing despite having a chance to escape. Talon and cait have been fighting in a bush. Talon gets exhausten and cait just runs away as darius stands next to two squishies and spins. Talon is trapped with two slows on him. Execution.
Sona tried to help Talon not knowing he would get exhausted. If she and talon knew Cait would exhaust, then they would of run back a long time ago, but they can't predict that thus the messiness of a teamfight.

Sona who went back, again ignoring the bruiser that took a 3rd of her health and killed her carry the last time she ignored him. Needless to say she didn't escape.

The biggest offenders here were ashe and sona. Two squishies, one was a carry the other was a support champ. While focusing a tank they walked up to darius completely ignoring him. And when things got bad they stayed nearby to fight him all while ignoring the enemy carry. They almost kill tanked up darius but darius doesnt even have to chase them because they stand right next to him while he passes out hemmorage like candy. The carry finally gets focused but by then its already too late, but sona doesn't seem to realize this. So she goes to talon making the same mistake she just made before. Standing next to darius and ignoring him simultaniously.

They attempted to support their melee champ's focus targets. If they kept their distance from their focus targets and their melee allies; they would be isolating themselves from the focus targets and the fight.
The fight was lost already because of the damage output darius could push out. The focus targets were put in the right place, but the problem was there was a limit to how long the team could focus targets.
They chose to focus a champ that could totally suppress a target and deal aoe% magic damage.
And the champ that could boost Cait's attackspeed with a low cd on the boost and an ulti that could potentially nuke the team.
Cait was very far away and Darius was tanky and at near full.

The biggest thing that Darius does is something he has that not a lot of champs can do.
Most champs with AOE moves like Sivir, Varus, Kat etcetc, all have moves that can damage a lot of champs easily, but the difference is that their moves decrease as they hit more champs. Darius's Q does not, It is consistent, spammable and it has a high ratio with a passive apply effect.


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Nightfallyn

Senior Member

07-24-2012

With the 30 from wriggles 50 from warden and your natural armor increase you would be at 100+ armor, close 50% reduction Id say that would help out a ton. Not to mention the proc of AS reduction. Also I am giving worst case scenarios, by 16 normal farm put you at 8500-9000 which should include a giants belt and or other health items, also if you wait for another teammate to intiate they can either sit and do nothing waiting to burst you or fight back, if they ignore everything but you just run let the rest of your team beat the **** out of them and when that first champ hits 800 turn and start your penta.

But I digress, these what if scenarios mean nothing, no other champ in the game has the ability to do 4000 unmitigated true damage with very little farm period.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

07-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
I wont get drawn in to the little farce of a game. No matter what video is posted and even if I manage to convince you that "X and Y isn't a mistake you will just use "outplayed" card, which is completely subjective since these vids are 1-2 minutes snippets of much longer games. Even if that Darius is 0/10/0 and 6 lvls under and should in no way be able to even attempt a penta-kill.
call them subjective statements if you like. But don't say subjective things after you complain about subjectivity. And don't judge my "subjectivity" which is based around improper videos when you are free to post a proper one. Go a head, post one. If its not a matter of glitches n such its fine. Just try to keep it relevant and post why its relevant. Arguing is fun just like going back and forth to break towers is fun. For me anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
Its an argument no one can win because the basis of it is just opinion to begin with.
then let's make it a debate. Who wins is determined by those watching. There's no need to have their opinion plastered all over, it will be reflected in future comments on the matter. A battle of influence however small the max may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
Oh you are right with little to no farm he would only be doing 700-800 per ulti and 1000 damage on the ulti requires 200 bonus AD. Which is easy to do with just 1 Blood Thirster and Wriggles and Maw of Malmortius and AD runes. Wriggles and Maw are quite tanky as well so with 3 other tank items he would be really hard to kill and still doing 1000 true damage.
you're quoting the wrong person. I don't care if its an instadeath once you reach 5 stacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
1600 wriggles
3300 maw
3000 thirster

So for 7900 gold which is **** farm for solo top or jungle by 16 you hit 1000 on the ulti. This is just to hit 1000 remember he is doing 700-900 after he hits 16 most of the time anyway.
my arguement doesn't care about this. He's a killing machine regardless of farm. And I like this. But it doesn't matter that I like it, not to my arguement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
See I will give you facts that aren't subjective. So lets say he has been shut down totally. Only has say:

Hexdrinker 1400
Merctreads 1200
Dorans blade x2 475x2 950
Wriggles 1600

25 ad from hex 20 from the dorans 23 from wriggle and say just the red for AD runes which is 9 and 4 from mastery.
Total 81 bonus AD there plus the armor magic resist health.

At .75 ad ratio his ulti now does 400 true damage x100% with 5 stacks of his passive which is all three of his skills with 2 auto attacks in between. That 800 true damage with just 5150 gold and tanky. In my worst games I can farm more then 5k gold and I am not that good. So he can do that 800 endlessly as long is there is a champion under 800 health. So your trying to tell me that being able to do roughly 4000 (800x5 champs) damage after being totally dominated isn't OP?
you just asked me a subjective question based upon tons of facts that don't counter my arguement in anyway. Long story short, float like a butterfly sting like a bee.

Wisdom and skill will always negate that 1000 damage when you make it do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
Just that number alone tells it all, sure he has no escapes, sure he "can" be focused. Sure there is CC and other things but CC works for every champ and none of them have the ability to do 4000 "TRUE DAMAGE" in a team fight with very little farm. That is why Darius will remain OP.
no, the word you're describing is "unique" by that definition, whichever ability does the most damage is by definition OP. By this definition he would be OP and there would be no point in doing anything about it unless every champ is to deal the exact same amount of damage. As someone will always be OP and balance would be impossible without that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfallyn View Post
Being outplayed or making mistakes doesn't even factor in the equation but with his ult those things are compounded exponentially.
they are the biggest factor. Fiddle sticks can just about kill you with a single ability at level 1. If you allow it that is. Same can be said of darius. How free you are to avoid it is a major factor. If ali wasn't allowed to dodge imagine how overpowered george forman would be.

So ya... Post a video of your choosing. A video showing that skill and ones decisions are irrelevant against darius.


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holy bongos

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Recruiter

07-24-2012

I assure you I build Darius as pretty tanky with my only choice of weapon power tending to be that of a frozen mallet and hex drinker for most of the game. I tend to save the Maw for last in favor of gaining more armor and some MR through various other items.

I can have 3.7k health by end game, go in first, and utterly get blown up with a steady 150 armor and MR as Darius. With no shields, no real CC, and no way of mitigating damage if you focus a Darius first he WILL blow up.

Now a good Darius will go in, cause havoc, maybe throw out one ult or two if he can catch up to a squishy, but by the five or six second mark he should flash out of that teamfight and let his team finish up if he's getting focused because he will die if he doesn't.

He's like a better version of Fiora in an odd way. He has a great kit but doesn't end up screwing himself by being squishy or having an ult that CC's himself.