"Simple" and "Easy" aren't the same thing

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stexe

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Adjudicator

07-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenseiSan View Post

This brings me back to what you said about the evolution of the game. Keep in mind that a lot of needlessly complicated mechanics actually have come to be that way because of years and years of precarious balancing and testing. The most simple solution often does not equate the best solution, and a lot of Dota mechanics illustrate that.

For example, Black King Bar is arguably one of the most important items in Dota 2, providing you with a several second buff that makes you immune to most magic damage and CC. The way the cooldown and the duration of the item works is that when you first buy it, it has a 10 second duration and an 80 second cooldown. However, with each use, the duration will go down by 1 second, and the cooldown by 5, until you end up with 5 seconds of magic immunity on a 55 second cooldown.

Needlessly complicated, right? Why not just average it out, and give it a static 7.5 second duration? The thing is, the item has gone through so many iterations, and no doubt, at some point used to have a static duration and cooldown. Or maybe at one point it had limited charges, so when it ran out, you would have to 'charge it up' by rebuying the recipe.

Ultimately, however, neither of these solutions made the item balanced in the eyes of the community or the designers, so we end up with the complicated duration-reducing compromise. And hell, it seems to work! It's still one of the most game-defining items, but at the same time it's often quite situational and hero dependent.

I think a lot of the games mechanics are in a similar position, having been finetuned over years and years of balancing to end up with something that might seem unnecessary if you only look at the end result. Of course, I completely agree that there are ALSO a lot of counter-intuitive or truly unnecessarily complicated concepts in the game, but you have to realize that there is always a big ongoing discussion on various dota forums on whether a particular mechanic can be simplified and whether it would compromise the gameplay in a significant way.

However, I think it's a bit too easy to just say "the game is needlessly complex, it should be simpler, cause simplicity makes for objectively better game design." without judging each mechanic on a case by case basis, and specifically looking at the degree in which each mechanic ultimately contributes to the game.

Yes, creep/tower aggro is complex, but if you simplify it in some way, what effect does that have on the overall game? How will it affect tower diving? Will it strengthen or weaken pushing lineups? All these questions (and then some) need to be exhaustively explored and debated before the final call is made, and that's just about that single mechanic.
The simplest method to reach the same result is called eloquence -- it is what all good game designers should be striving for.

BKB used to have a flat cooldown and duration. I've actually played thousands of games of DotA (usually with Clan TDA) -- from the first TFT release up to when LoL came out. Studied the patch notes religiously (and still do actually for DotA and LoL); always looking for why one change was made over another.

I *think* the reason for the change in BKB's duration and cooldown stems from the way fights change -- there are usually long drawn out battles early in the game before people get big items and spells are devastating and late game battles are smaller and faster where spells aren't as powerful. Still, it is pretty overly complex for little gain.

There are many things DotA does right, but there are just as many if not more that it does wrong. Was it good for a WC3 map? Amazingly so, but as a stand alone game that could be designed to fix all those issues? That's just bad game design.

It shouldn't matter what the current balance of the game is: if Icefrog was a good game designer he would fix these issues and rebalance the game for the changes. Instead he is being lazy and just porting everything over.

Would you want to play the original Doom with 3D graphics and improved interface? Would that really be the best game to do? Wouldn't you agree that maybe -- just maybe -- you'd want to fix the issues and improve upon it?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PrototypeAlpha

Junior Member

07-19-2012

please forgive me for not playing dota2 but this is the same argument that happens in almost every aspect of the gaming world.
BF3 vs COD
PS3 vs Xbox
normal keyboard vs gaming keyboard
it really comes down to preference. I like red because its red... you like blue because its blue or because it is different from red.
does that mean that we like purple just as much or will we be mad because its not the color that we originally liked?

each game can be fun for different reasons for different people. some people like league because their friends play, others like to hear Phreak say "tons of damage", People love the art submissions to the summoner show case.... TEEEMO (facepalm)

really I don't see why you want to make League more like DOTA2. wouldn't it just be a worse version of dota2 (kinda what your saying it is now since they are moba games) games should celebrate their differences not try and make them alike.

I hope your game gets better... I hope LOL gets better... and I hope that we never agree on what one is the best, I just wish that Bashing people that don't share our views was they way people try and decide the champ of the moba world. Instead we should share what we like and show concerns for what we don't.

I love league of legends because I can have fun in any lane, the art style makes me throw money at a free game and I know when I make a stupid move and will do my best to improve each game.

/SleepyRant


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ButterflyPuwn

Senior Member

07-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiersonsPuppet View Post
Or just doesn't care enough about league to put in the effort needed to become better. They are inherently different games. That doesn't stop starcraft from being more difficult.
You can mind read Destiny like a book, you chess grandmaster you.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Frowny Cupcake

Senior Member

07-19-2012

.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Frowny Cupcake

Senior Member

07-20-2012

.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aishi

Senior Member

07-20-2012

It's the same argument as the Street Fighter 4 scene versus Street Fighter Third Strike.

Street Fighter 4 received criticism because it basically "dumbed down" the MECHANICS of the fighting game. No longer are you in practice mode with most of the cast learning an air juggle combo that happens only when you make contact with X character with Y button at Z positioning that take close to a week of constant play to master. The respect for Street Fighter 4 came in a very different form, it was slow, calculated play. Exciting? Sure, comebacks happen, combos are still very damaging and fun to watch. Os it the same PACE of Third Strike? Not at all, they're two completely different beasts.

Sure, DoTA has their own type of playstyle, it revolves around much more mechanics with a different pacing. (I want to say I should know what taxing mechanical and burdens of knowledge exist in DoTA, I have about 800 games of Invoker played). Does that mean it's the better game? Not at all, just as Third Strike is a different game from Street Fighter 4, DoTA and LoL are very hard to compare also. Easy mechanically doesn't also mean easy to play, Street Fighter 4 puts the focus on poking, spacing, and footsies but good Third Strike players don't necessarily jump into Street Fighter 4 with an auto-win button (and vice versa) much of the knowledge transfers but mechanics differ.

My two cents coming from a member of the FGC.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sporktastic

Junior Member

07-20-2012

Well I wouldn't say LoL is an inferior game, but I WOULD say that DotA/H_N players switching to LoL will generally have more success switching to DotA/H_N - they're just harder games, period.

It's kind of a 'hottest fire forges the strongest steel' kind of thing.

I originally played DotA/H_N, but after about a year or so I started playing LoL and got to level 30 (around 300 games played).

When I originally started, I was winning constantly of due to being matched with low-skill players (but it's worthwhile to note that I was playing essentially blind - I started games, chose a random hero, read the skills, and won without even knowing the abilities/roles of any other player in the game, even against mid-level players).

Conversely, when my experienced LoL friends decided to try H_N (also in the low-skill bracket), they were completely stomped every game for a while until they had around 20ish games.

Perhaps there are other factors involved, but take this into consideration - Chaox (some LoL pro I believe) played H_N before starting LoL. His rating? 1900 (which is very high, but not even what most would call pro level). Granted, he may have improved since the switch, but from what I hear he ascended very quickly in the LoL scene and is now one of the top players. And he did have 500+ games of H_N played along with DotA experience.

Then there's the Chu8 story.

I don't follow the LoL scene but I would be surprised if a LoL pro switching to DOTA2 when it really gets going will achieve such success.

LoL is a more forgiving game, so it makes sense that DotA/H_N pros have higher technical skill and make fewer mistakes. After all, there's no flash to get you out of trouble in DotA unless you're playing a specific hero and you lose a huge chunk of your gold if you die. Furthermore, heroes with a blink skill are extremely squishy (think Ashe-level squishy) and given the greater number of stuns/roots in DotA it is consequently still very dangerous to be out of position, moreso than in LoL.

In many ways the ruthlessness of the DotA environment produces (in my opinion) players with higher individual skill.


Thoughts?


And forgive me if the underscores in H_N are unnecessary - it's been a while since my last post and I seem to recall that Riot was censoring mentions of 'that other game'.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BohemianParody

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtxAishi View Post
It's the same argument as the Street Fighter 4 scene versus Street Fighter Third Strike.

Street Fighter 4 received criticism because it basically "dumbed down" the MECHANICS of the fighting game. No longer are you in practice mode with most of the cast learning an air juggle combo that happens only when you make contact with X character with Y button at Z positioning that take close to a week of constant play to master. The respect for Street Fighter 4 came in a very different form, it was slow, calculated play. Exciting? Sure, comebacks happen, combos are still very damaging and fun to watch. Os it the same PACE of Third Strike? Not at all, they're two completely different beasts.

Sure, DoTA has their own type of playstyle, it revolves around much more mechanics with a different pacing. (I want to say I should know what taxing mechanical and burdens of knowledge exist in DoTA, I have about 800 games of Invoker played). Does that mean it's the better game? Not at all, just as Third Strike is a different game from Street Fighter 4, DoTA and LoL are very hard to compare also. Easy mechanically doesn't also mean easy to play, Street Fighter 4 puts the focus on poking, spacing, and footsies but good Third Strike players don't necessarily jump into Street Fighter 4 with an auto-win button (and vice versa) much of the knowledge transfers but mechanics differ.

My two cents coming from a member of the FGC.
And can you say that LoL is a better game because it's simpler than Dota? That's what Riot's trying to say and that's what they have always tried to reinforced the mindset that LoL is a superior game compared to Dota on their sheep.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Frowny Cupcake

Senior Member

07-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BohemianParody View Post
And can you say that LoL is a better game because it's simpler than Dota? That's what Riot's trying to say and that's what they have always tried to reinforced the mindset that LoL is a superior game compared to Dota on their sheep.
Yup, Roit totally evil, we are just moneybags, amirite?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Morello

Lead Designer

07-20-2012
11 of 11 Riot Posts

This thread has really devolved into blaming and name-calling. Booo.