STEALTH REWORK (details) HERE

First Riot Post
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jhcrystalarrow

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Recruiter

07-18-2012

Yay! It will be fun to try out these new moves because they look cool.

Hopefully this will come out soon


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Ishoa

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Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorttallguy View Post
oh man. so you don't know what you're doing so you completely change the champ taking away the one thing people play her for!? we play her to be invisible, ESPECIALLY when close to enemies NOT EXCEPT when close. All she needed as a buff was a decent passive. that was it. she was fine. people who think she wasn't just don't know what they're doing. give her that ms speed stacking buff thing as her passive. done fixed. or even make her current passive work on neutral monsters. done fixed. or make her hate spike not take so much mana or give her more mana/mana regen. done fixed. make her passive to be she regens mana while in stealth. DONE FIXED. omg this is so easy its laughable. I could go on for days. maybe if you take peoples advice who actually care you wouldn't piss everyone off when you **** it up.

lmao i have to laugh at myself for getting so worked up over a video game but i can't help it. i care.
I cant even begin to describe how much I share your feelings. Anyone who thought eve was horrible right now didn't know how to play her. I mean I like the new skills, but if I had to trade for old skills with old stealth I would take it any day. Morello says that they wanted to take away the whole oracles shutting down eve when honestly it didn't if you played her well. The only real problem eve had was being a part of team fights from the start, but being a stealth assassin her gameplay in my opinion was some one who picked off people low on hp that tried to retreat from battle. (hunting or taking down squishies and retreating real fast). That was the fun and excitement of playing eve for me being able to get that kill pop back into stealth and make that reverse juke thru bushes and have people wondering where I went (say goodbye to those days since people can see you from almost double oracle range which makes 0 sense to me)


EDIT: not to say that i don't like the changes in her skills or that i feel she isn't going to be fun anymore. just some things that i thought was genuinely entertaining about her are going away. for no reason than "we feel that this type of stealth is bad"...whats the point of oracles if not to detect stealth.. that's the reason people buy it.. its pretty horrible to think oracles is just for detecting other people's wards and not a stealth champion now people don't even need oracles when u have a built in better version of the item for free. People didnt "have" to get oracles early in game just to deal with eve since she was low damage early game and for the most part was a glorified moving ward / extra gank damage that slowly grew into a serious threat mid to late game. That's the point of her skill set being somewhat weak because stealth was strong as it was, and I'd like to say most good eve players were fine with this. All she needed was a passive tweak and he would have been perfect. (new visuals woudla been nice too actually).


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Abaddon159

Junior Member

07-18-2012

Way to many posts. and i dont think anyone is going to see this but is there going to be a legendary skin for eve? i would buy it strait away it if looks hot. Big ****, and not geeky star trek, but like a masocist girl, mabey chains? and a whip? just some cool legendary skin. I would def buy along with many others. Just a thought


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Voodoo Jelly

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Jelly View Post
I bump for justice. I really am desperate to hear some of the justifications for the way Eve is currently implemented on the PBE. She is extremely difficult to use, and needs some quality of life adjustments. The rework is not a bust, but it has some severe issues that did not solve the problems evelynn had on HER end of the difficulty spectrum

I am relinking my post on the bottom of page 227, which then further leads back to the original thread in which I participated on the PBE server.

Please, any Rioters around, I really would like to have confirmation that my voice is being heard here. Even simple dismissals with simple reasons for the inadequacies of my design ideas would be much appreciated.

Here is the post on page 227.
reposting for the current page. my response to someone who replied to me:

Quote:
Evelynn got nerfed because her and Twitch were wrecking pre-level 30 players. The changes were intended to keep stealth in check. It's no coincidence that turrets got a huge vision increase while Evelynn gets a stealth with huge holes in it and Twitch gets 4-8 seconds of stealth. Riot hates stealth because atm stealth has a rage mechanic that makes new players and ****ty players alike rage and quit the game. Losing players costs Riot money, so stealth is counter intuitive.
Right, that's why the discussion to which I previously linked was merely discussing "Quality Of Life" changes. I have absolutely no issue with how the stealth functions on a mechanical level, but I would like to see a Rioter give me or the people testing on the PBE forum some indications of a few of our more esoteric design ideas that might help her be able to more easily understand when and when not to actually engage on a target, given how the new stealth works.


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n?g?yh

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Junior Member

07-18-2012

Amazing


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Voodoo Jelly

Senior Member

07-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTT Desertor View Post
Amazing
With regards to what? o_O


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ShadowRumia

Senior Member

07-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seemenaked View Post
Evelynn got nerfed because her and Twitch were wrecking pre-level 30 players. The changes were intended to keep stealth in check. It's no coincidence that turrets got a huge vision increase while Evelynn gets a stealth with huge holes in it and Twitch gets 4-8 seconds of stealth. Riot hates stealth because atm stealth has a rage mechanic that makes new players and ****ty players alike rage and quit the game. Losing players costs Riot money, so stealth is counter intuitive.
on a free game....heh but seriously dont make characters like them if you dont wand people to rage and quit. they are an intelligence check. and saldy too many fail it


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Morello

Lead Designer

07-19-2012
54 of 54 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Jelly View Post
Right, that's why the discussion to which I previously linked was merely discussing "Quality Of Life" changes. I have absolutely no issue with how the stealth functions on a mechanical level, but I would like to see a Rioter give me or the people testing on the PBE forum some indications of a few of our more esoteric design ideas that might help her be able to more easily understand when and when not to actually engage on a target, given how the new stealth works.
Is this about the stealth bubble and eye "detection" stuff? This should be the pieces doing that job - are they not functioning correctly, or are you lacking vital information from them?


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zekuza

Junior Member

07-19-2012

Morello, i think you have made a problem in your rework of twitch.
People bought twitch because he was a long term stealth based around stacking poision shots, If you reduce the stealth time to 5-10, He wont work as well anymore. Why?
His old timer allowed him to effectively "Scout" out the enemy team, Also, to sneak past vision wards, champions and minions and pretty much be hard to pin him down. If hes hard to pin down, the "Fear" of being ganked by him remains. But if you add the new timer, he has to time his movements perfectly. He also has a MUCH higher chance of being spotted, because he cant just stealth and walk across the whole map, he has to Walk across then stealth to enter a gank. People new to twitch have to time their actions very well. if he goes in to scout, He has a short amount of time to, if he chases them and keeps watching them, he has limited time. What i liked about his stealth is that he could keep tabs on a entire team, and with a 50 second invisi lengh, He could stick with the enemy team. I also liked how he could go invisible, Mark a target on a person and wait for him to split from his team and kill him. Also, by reducing the Stealth time, You effectively turn his stealth into a movement speed buff, attack speed buff. Honestly, I like the new buffs to his stealth, but i really think you should at least make the max at lvl 5 20-30. *The stealth timer also allows him to roam and check out the map, while maintaining his invisiblity. Since thats gone, He will be much harder to play, And this rework counts as a nerf.

Edit: The rest of the skills work fine, But his casket speed should be slightly higher, Its hard to hit high speed people with it, because its a click and aim hit with much less AOE, Much like singeds adhesive.

Edit2: *

Edit3: Fixed edit2


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Voodoo Jelly

Senior Member

07-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Is this about the stealth bubble and eye "detection" stuff? This should be the pieces doing that job - are they not functioning correctly, or are you lacking vital information from them?
First off, thank you so much for acknowledging my post at all. I really do want to help make this game the best it can be, and having an opportunity to share my ideas with you as the lead designer gives me hope for that future. And, well, I also hope that you can find the time to get through this new post that I'm making. It's a bit of a doozy. Seriously, though, Morello: thank you for responding.

None of the new stealth mechanics are what I have issue with--it's that she's very vulnerable even with a perfectly executed engagement when getting close to an enemy. I'm going to quote the link I made earlier on my thoughts in the PBE forum if you want the full discussion, but I will try to summarize my and others' ideas on how to make some adjustments to Eve's new super-fun tool kit.

Here's the link to one of the bigger threads in the PBE forum regarding Evelynn. Apologies that it is a little less formally structured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Jelly View Post
crossposting here a post from another thread: HERE
Let me start on Eve by saying I'm a big fan of the remake. I've wanted to go assasinating people for a while. The stealth mechanic here works wonderfully, but there are tiny things that I am just curious about as to why they were implemented the way they are, and I hope you have time to explain the rationale for a few of the design decisions on her current kit.

Originally, there was a suggestion to give her the ability to check brush safely. In this iteration of Eve's remake, she doesn't have the ability to scout through the many brushes across the map, without taking clairvoyance. Simply placing a ward to check puts her far too close to the brush anyway, where her enemies can see her, but she can't see them.

One idea I suggested was simply letting her see into brush while stealthed, given that her stealth in its current form is effectively a moving brush she's always in that other champions can also enter.

Here's another idea that's a little more convoluted to explain, but easy to visualize. If simply letting her see in brush would be too overpowered, her only ability with significant range is her ultimate. Her ultimate could reveal the area where it is used, and then, as long as she does not hit a champion, her ultimate receives a much shorter cooldown, allowing her to safely, at range, see if there was a champion in the brush. The cooldown would still be relatively significant, but if Eve had an ability that functioned like a much shorter range Hawkshot from Ashe, she would be able to more reliably roam around the map in the mid game.

A good limiting factor to that idea is that she has to reach 6 first in order to begin using the ability for brush-checking, giving her a similar tone to Warwick in the manner of his sudden increase of power at level 6 because of his ultimate.

The scenario is: she doesn't want to facecheck a brush, so she ults the brush to see if there are enemy champions. If there are, the full cooldown as it stands, is applied, no issue. However, if there were no enemies present, the cooldown could be much much shorter.

To make this idea more palatable, it could require two conditions for the cooldown reduction on her ult: no champions being hit AND the ult being cast in brush. So she couldn't just use it over the wall into, say, dragon or blue buff and get the cooldown reduction. With both these conditions, she now has the utility of being able to scout at a distance into only the brush, as a way of helping her team confirm where the enemy isn't.

Additionally, as a damage spell, this would break her stealth, adding another judgment call for the eve player, to waste one of her primary tools and risk revealing herself.

Since both Nidalee and Caitlyn have brush-specific interactions, this doesn't seem like an unreasonable way to allow Eve to check brush. If there is a champion, and she isn't prepared to gank, she has made a mistake, and whiffed her ultimate. That feels like a balanced, aggressive play-style, encouraging her roaming without constant fear of moving into brush.

Or, a simple idea: When she enters brush, the time to re-enter stealth decreases, something like .25 to .5 of 1 second of her current 8 second timer being reduced for each second she's in the brush, meaning that if she is destealthed AS she enters the brush, she would be re-stealthed much quicker, and be able to take more advantage of her passive mana regen when disengaging.

But speaking of spells breaking stealth: her old ultimate didn't break stealth, and provided a speed boost. Is it really too unreasonable to allow her W, which is a speed boost, to be used without breaking stealth? This change would encourage her aggressive play again, and make her have to decide to risk using the boost to get to a fight from stealth faster, or saving it for clearing slows if the fight doesn't go well for her, because of its significantly long cooldown if she doesn't successfully execute a kill or assist. I would gladly accept lower base values on her damage with higher ratios on her other abilities if she had the ability to use W while stealthed. She can't utilize her mana regen in the jungle very effectively if she's breaking her stealth with W, making players unfamiliar with her too reliant on golem buff.

And I have to ask about this. Why does her stealth take 8 seconds to reengage? I can understand that making it exactly five seconds would effectively make boots of mobility mandatory on her, but 6 seconds would allow the speed to kick in with a full second of her enemies still seeing her, allowing them to predict her movement. 8 seconds is a long time in the heated moments of this game.

Another brief idea, along the lines of this same theme: very minor attempts to forgive her for making only mildly imprecise plays: the thought I had on this was that she could be given a very small, short-term buff of flat damage reduction upon breaking her stealth. When I mean small and short term, I mean 5 to 10% for 1 to 2 seconds tops. Her stats are still very low, so enemies would still be well within their ability to gauge her damage output. However, the mere presence of the flat damage reduction could encourage her to take more risks.

Combining a faster stealth time and an extremely brief damage reduction would help her early jungling more than it would help her mid to late game. Even with proper runes and team leashes, she does drop dangerously low, becoming susceptible to the very counterjungling she can potentially be capable of, to junglers much more durable than Eve herself. If early ranks of Hate Spike took a damage hit because of this, that would be acceptable--trading some of her early damage for minor boosts of defense.

Another idea suggested was incorporating a stack indicator into one of her abilities that, as you used that ability, made her next re-entry into stealth faster. Under the current stealth system, either Hate Spike or Dark Frenzy could apply this concept. For example, if she gains the movement speed buffs from attacking a champion with Dark Frenzy's passive, after the passive falls away, the number of stacks she had reduces her time to enter stealth by one second. She would, if still in range of enemies, be seen, and this advantage would mean nothing, but a clever player could engage with Hate Spikes, stacking the movement speed buffs, and regardless of the outcome of a hypothetical fight wherein Eve either kills or does not kill her victim, the moment those movespeed buffs expire, her time to reenter her new form of stealth is cut in half, letting her make a potentially faster getaway after an aggressive gank. It would require a lot of finesse to pull that off, I think, and Eve's playstyle thematically cries finesse as one of the most Fatale of Femmes.

This would make her strategic stealth more akin to the aggressive tactical stealth of the other stealthers, like Twitch and Shaco. All of these characters can be played to employ hit-and-run tactics, and the idea in the preceding paragraph helps her have something similar to Shaco's Deceive without it being an actual blink-type move.

The reason I am suggesting all these types of consistently aggressive design options is because of the fact that her W's active refreshes on a kill or assist. Kill-refreshing moves, under most in-game circumstances, we consider to be inherently aggressive, yes? She is an aggressive character, and small tweaks to encourage bold movements throughout the map would allow her to be constantly on the prowl for champions who need to get some Widows made.

As your internal testing found: she is still counterable by both types of wards if cleverly placed, and as far as I can tell, none of the suggestions I've made here, some of them from me, some of them from posters in the PBE forum, would ruin the style of her gameplay that you've all worked hard on and done a stellar job at making her feel fun and new again. They would, however, provide her with another tool for her kit in order to more skillfully determine when or when not to apply her skills

Again, I love the remake. I've been a fan of Eve for a long time, glad to have someone who turns invisible and eats people with red death, but in her current implementation, it's very easy for her to stay feast or famine, which is a design choice that has not been received rather well.

In the previous thread, I made a specific remark about the remake being successful, but that a few small tweaks in favor of her usability would make her both more complicated and more satisfying to play. If Lee Sin, Nidalee, and Jayce are any indication, your design philosophy does have a certain fondness for the occasional champion that require a lot of effort to play skillfully, and by giving Eve more tools tailored to this new stealth, you could make her more fun to play without the previously toxic elements that led to this remake in the first place. The more complex heroes with their jarring, unique playstyles are among my absolute favorites in the entire roster.

I also want to ask specifically: Is Ravage intended to work like Twin Bite? If so, that is a brilliant and strategic idea for Eve, because it lets her do what Shyvana can do: kill a ward as soon as it's put down. Excellent for counterjungling.

Finally, in the spotlight, Eve seems to require exhaust as her only significant crowd control. While I agree that we shouldn't homogenize champions to all have some form of hard CC, if she can't have hard CC, she really feels like she needs another tool to help her recognize the most opportune moments to gank.

I want to repeat: I love complex heroes, and I love the new Eve, because she's getting complex.

Would it be too unreasonable to consider one or more of these changes to her new kit, to give her just a tad more self-reliance? Her difficulty curve is steep, and should be so, given that her stealth is as of now for all intents and purposes unique. One or more of these tools would add just a few more things that could help her be more reliable as an assassin, both in knowing when to and when not to engage.

I really hope I wasn't too boring or naive in making this dissertation, and that you made it through this whopper of a post, Morello. I really appreciate that you took the time to at least ask me to clarify on what I was asking. Just knowing that my voice was heard for a moment gave me some more hope that I could understand some of the design decisions you guys made. If I could hear more from you on why these ideas (and maybe even others!) might be a possible good or just outright bad, I would be happy just knowing why some of the changes have been made the way they were. It boils down to me just wanting some insight into one of my favorite champions.

Again, thank you for finally getting around to giving a real effort at making Eve as cool as she was meant to be.