RIOT PLZ. Orianna "buff" is more of a nerf (MATH ITT)

First Riot Post
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pWasHere

Senior Member

07-12-2012

I think one of the problems I am having with your logic is that you are considering the usability changes as a buff in your calculations, when i do not think that is the case.

That is like saying when you are showing a newly redone house with a broken sink that fixing that sink will be a "buff," if you will, to the house.

Sure it is an improvement, but it should have been done even if buffing was never even your intention. For this reason, i do not even think the usability changes should even be included in these discussions.

If any Reds think differently, can you please explain why.


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Akkku

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Reading a lot of that made me oh so happy. Thank you Riot for finally answering our questions. This was a LOT better than Roku just merely saying "We like the changes."

I'm really happy things are getting fixed up for her. I really despised her Q doing such weak damage compared to W or even R, it felt very lackluster and didn't help with the other method of poking, with Q (the other being Shield and poke with passive) nor with using it in replace of using utility from your W.

And that stun on her R, it means the world for that ultimate.

I'm sad that Q ball speed isnt going to get buffed a little bit because it does feel slower, especially to an avid Orianna players. But what can ya do :<


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Subtlechaos

Junior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Keep in mind that Orianna's 'R' stun was never longer than 0.5 to 0.75 seconds - so... I'm not actually sure how much has changed after this is fixed.
It's not so much the stun length than the fact that it actually had a stun component to it. What good is an ult like that if it can't even stop channeling spells like nunu and kat's ult?

Having the stun gone removes so much of its utility.


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FunkyBunch

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtlechaos View Post
It's not so much the stun length than the fact that it actually had a stun component to it. What good is an ult like that if it can't even stop channeling spells like nunu and kat's ult?

Having the stun gone removes so much of its utility.
It being gone was a bug.


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effexkiller

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Of course non of my up-voted replies are responded to


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Liam Stark

Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Okay, well, I'm going to go eat. Thanks for the questions/feedback!
I feel like having you explain my favorite champion to play helped alot of my initial anger towards how I felt she was so badly nerfed. I was one of those that said "ZOMG SO MUCH DMG OFF Q SHE GOT NERFED INTO DA GROUND" The fact is, the passive buffs are what balances her out in the end. The Q-W tweaks I feel are fine, and make her a little weaker if the passive wasn't changed to its current state. Simply put, the end damage nerf on the passive isn't as much of an impact as the initial buff. In a trade you're never really going to be hitting the other guy more than 2-3 times, otherwise you risk taking too much damage. I like the way Riot completely thought this one out, and how Xypherous took the time to tediously explain the changes. This is a great job by riot, now we can go ***** about what they're doing to the legendary skins.


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effexkiller

Senior Member

07-12-2012

reds consider it a buff. thousands of players consider it a nerf. Who is correct ? The people paying for the content, or the people making it ?


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PatMcGroyne

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
OK, so I talked to the team a little bit; I'll give you a high-level overview.

* Orianna is, objectively, stronger. Look at high elo streams showing Orianna. She's doing well against a variety of midlanes and transferring well into the teamfight stage, as well as providing unique utility. Viability seems extremely promising.

* Using Orianna correctly now has a bigger impact. The changes, simply, allow her to do more things overall and adapt to a wider variety of situations. Additionally, changes to things like her passive are simply logical changes that fit with how people play Orianna in realistic environments (ie it's not common for her to get more than a couple AA's with her passive due to her squishiness).

* These changes make her 'cleaner': This is important for making your skill with Orianna not fighting against clunkiness of skills, but instead acting, reacting and making in-game decisions. For some reason, this is a contentious value because snooty players can perceive any usability change as noobification (which is just...wow), but overall it lets you focus on her core gameplay.

We're happy with the Orianna changes and they seem to be successful, but as with any change we'll watch and see what happens as things continue.
So I am going to break up your arguements into section by paragraphs and argue against them.

1. Orianna was always doing fairly well against many mid-lanes, this is unchanged after the patch. I would argue that she actually faired better before the changes because landing a Q,E allowed her to trade slightly better than it does now.

2. If you aren't landing more than a couple of auto-attacks you are wasting one of Orianna's best sources of damage. Using Orianna correctly now has a similar if not smaller impact, this is because she does less damage, and her ultimate has less utility. However I do accept that the E buff made it easier to land her skills but at the same time with good positioning you still do it anyways.

You changed her passive because it is not common for her to get off as many AA's but then you change her Q so she has to stay in danger longer to get off her damage. This is clearly a confused argument that you made up after the changes otherwise I'm guessing one of these changes wouldn't have gone through (or atleast you wouldn't have argued it in this thread).

3. Firstly I don't appreciate being called snooty, you clearly do not understand what you did to the champion. You took away damage and made her easier to learn. Let me repeat that, you took away damage and made her easier to learn. If this is not the definition of your self labelled "noobification" I really don't know what is. The bottom line is you do less damage with new Orianna but she is more forgiving to play thus punishing players who were good with her and used to her.

The Q is actually harder to land now at longer distances this is because the ball now moves slower and is easier to dodge. Now I know what your thinking "but we removed the latency" well your opponent doesn't see the latency, the latency doesn't give them a chance to purposely dodge the ball but slowing down the projectile does. Also you can adjust to the latency and still hit people when you are used to it you don't even notice it. So in short Q has not become easier to hit however E, W, and R (W and R have only when using E since I argue Q is more difficult to land I must argue that these other spells are more difficult to land when comboing with Q) have yet Q is the skill that is suffering for it.

Now am I arguing that Orianna has now been nerfed out of viability? No. Orianna remains a good (and IMHO undervalued) champion. The question of whether or not she needed this nerf is not answered in this argument and I do not have the knowledge to make that decision. However I can tell you that no matter how you spin it the changes are an overall nerf.

I will continue to enjoy playing Orianna even though I now do less damage with her because currently she is one of the only champions I find interesting enough to play these days. Orianna is fine I just don't want to be given lemons and told it is lemonade, I can make lemonade out of your lemons but that still does not make them lemonade.

Edit: I do not appreciate the arrogance I felt in your post which is actually what made me respond in a somewhat less than pleasant manner in my response and for that I apologize however I would appreciate a response and maybe some counter-points unless I have somehow changed your mind which I highly doubt.


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Haskill Sonnet

Member

07-12-2012

I'm not going to contribute anything useful.
Just these statements,

Orianna is probably my favourite champ, both in terms of concept/lore and skillset. This of course makes Xypherous my favourite designer, since he also had a hand in Fizz and Designed Riven and Lulu... all amazing.

As to the changes...
Well, she is certainly more responsive now, and being able to pull of an almost guaranteed combo when I want it is amazing.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-12-2012
22 of 22 Riot Posts

Quote:
More importantly though, the ball speed change I do disagree with. Landing her combo faster isn't necessarily the 'optimal' thing to do. If you land Q --> R then you're experiencing a ~<=0.15 (.05 travel time + .1 R time) increase in total combo time, and while you might be able to W E faster, there is very little strategic value in slowing your opponents while they are stunned. So the ball speed slow down slow should be balancing her combo when she is using the Q W E part of her combo instead of the full Q R W E combo. Introducing the R makes executing the entirety of her combo less effective. She should have a little bit of the ball speed restored because her Q-->R combo which is a crucial catch mechanism for Ori effectively got delayed by ~<=0.15 seconds.
Keep in mind that your R also casts 0.25 to 0.5 seconds faster due to the lag compensation / mid-air travel time recoding because before, you could not issue the 'R' command until after Q landed and the unlock packet arrived at your computer.

Her Q --> R combo or E --> R will respond much faster than before due to this early unlock.