Karma Spirit Bond idea.

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Randell44

Senior Member

07-12-2012

I like her as her game play now. I don't want her "remade". I'd like to buff that game play and add a new dimension by helping shore up a weakness somewhat while giving her something unique. In addition to the following change her auto attack range definitely needs to be larger.


The new Spirit Bond:

Spirit Bond - Karma creates a forced spirit bond between herself an ally or enemy. Allied anchors move faster and enemy anchors are slowed. This beam saps the spirit of an enemy, dealing damage to a target over time and healing herself. The force of this spirit bond is so strong that Karma will regain a small amount of mana over time.

(Obviously this should be far weaker than fiddles drain and return because it's fire and forget and has secondary effects.)

If Karma targets an Ally they create a synergetic spirit bond causing both to gain a small amount of health, mana, and energy over the duration of the spell in additional to the movement speed boost. Adjust the values as such that it mitigates the cost of the spell if the beam is fully maintained but does not eliminate it.

Any allies or enemies in the beam experience the movement speed effects, but only the direct targets and Karma experience the other effects.

Mantra Bonus: Karma strengthens the bond to double all effects including damage.

The beam breaks if the bonded target is stealthed.





This would make the ability a highly supportive ability especially useful for sustaining and laning without pushing. It would would also give the slow a reason to exist on it without making it inescapable by improving it.

If you did that then Karma would have a unique ability useful for laning and prolonged "attrition" engagements, especially when paired with an ally. Enemies wouldn't be punished too much by it if they broke tether range, but she could use to safely enhance her own laning without pushing. Maybe give her a niche without changing her overall gameplay by helping shore up her weak areas. It also continues her theme of "I can support but I am also self sufficient, but do neither as well as a focused champion" while giving her something unique to help offset the inherent disadvantage of non-specialization. Yet at the same time a 15 second cooldown keeps it from being too abusable.


You can also independently adjust many values within the spell to balance it in a variety of ways. Variables for this include (damage over time, heal over time, duration of beam, range, mana/energy recovery amount over time, movement speed boost, and more.


I know it's a bit complex, but I'm thinking outside of the box here. I like the fact that it's fire and forget but it's a duration based and tether reliant beam that does it's job over time. The specific changes allow it to keep it's current functionality, sans burst damage, and replace that damage potential with other more useful potential that is nonetheless subtle.



I have a dreadful feeling that the upcoming changes are going to destroy the Karma I know and love. She is my favorite champion and one I am good at.



Theoretical Numbers:

15 second cooldown.

Enemy Effects
Damage: 30/45/60/75/90/105 (+0.45) per second over 5 seconds.
Totals: 150/225/300/375/450/525 damage total
Slow enemy: 10/12/14/16/18/20% (Applies to all who touch beam)


Friendly Effects:
Heal: 7/11/15/19/23/27 plus 1% (+0.02%) over 5 seconds.
Totals: 35/55/75/95/115/135 plus 5% (+0.02%) on full duration tether.
Mana: 4/6/8/10/12/14 plus 0.5% (+0.02%) over 5 seconds.
Totals: 20/30/40/50/60/70 Plus 2.5% (+0.02%) on a full duration tether.
Movement boost ally: 10/12/14/16/18/20% (Applies to all who touch beam)

Mantra doubles all values.


Numbers and ideas are all theory craft, mix, match, and remove pieces you like at will. I'm hoping the values are enough to be useful without being overpowered.


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BBFSmokedCayenne

Senior Member

07-12-2012

karma is fine. she does not need a rework. I laugh at you for making this post.

the tether is only there to 40% haste your team to go slap an overextended enemy or something. all this additional cr*p is very superfluous.
it is 40% because you will always have a mantra to spend when youre just hauling *ss across the field to go kill someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randell44 View Post
I'm hoping the values are enough to be useful without being overpowered.
hate to break the news to you, but she already is OP.


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theloopylobster

Senior Member

07-12-2012

i like this idea, its seems well thought out, one of the other ideas that i've seen floating around for a karma buff on her W, is that the slow/movespeed amount is increased, the damage also affects the tether and adding mantra stacks allows you to place another down, to a max of 3, so you could have 3 out at a time slowing and damaging the entire team while at the same time speeding your team up


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BBFSmokedCayenne

Senior Member

07-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by theloopylobster View Post
i like this idea, its seems well thought out, one of the other ideas that i've seen floating around for a karma buff on her W, is that the slow/movespeed amount is increased, the damage also affects the tether and adding mantra stacks allows you to place another down, to a max of 3, so you could have 3 out at a time slowing and damaging the entire team while at the same time speeding your team up
no.


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Randell44

Senior Member

07-13-2012

Karma can be good, but ultimately she has a few major weaknesses and her Spirit Bond needs to be more useful without being outright powerful.

By keeping the values lower and keeping with the effects cumulative via tether over 5 seconds this makes laning forces choices on what you want. And end game it won't have the impact of early game and laning but it'll still be alot more useful.


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Randell44

Senior Member

07-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokedCayenne View Post
hate to break the news to you, but she already is OP.
Ok I'll bite, why is she overpowered again?

Because true, she feels strong against people who have obviously not encountered a decently played Karma (not highly played) but those who understand how she works should be able to counter her fairly easily.


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BBFSmokedCayenne

Senior Member

07-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randell44 View Post
Ok I'll bite, why is she overpowered again?

Because true, she feels strong against people who have obviously not encountered a decently played Karma (not highly played) but those who understand how she works should be able to counter her fairly easily.
shes overpowered because she is a self-sufficient mage who can hold her own in a 1v1 while being able to mitigate tonnes of damage without even building tanky, thanks to her AP ratios and CDs on her shield and heal. She can then apply this intense damage mitigation to her team. That's more sustain in 12 seconds than soraka as she waits to come off CD for her astral blessing.

karmas damage mitigation:

6 second CD shield, another 6 second CD shield = ~1400-1600 damage shielded.
(using both mantras) 4.5 second CD heal, another 4.5 second CD heal. thats just a lot of HP healed depending on current HP. all of this being unloaded in 12 seconds.

opening up with the shield, then heal Qing right after, then repeat once.


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XCodes

Senior Member

07-22-2012

Karma is fine, she does not need a re-work. That said, even though she's fine and doesn't need a re-work, she's getting one anyway and it's already, basically done.


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Randell44

Senior Member

07-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokedCayenne View Post
shes overpowered because she is a self-sufficient mage who can hold her own in a 1v1 while being able to mitigate tonnes of damage without even building tanky, thanks to her AP ratios and CDs on her shield and heal. She can then apply this intense damage mitigation to her team. That's more sustain in 12 seconds than soraka as she waits to come off CD for her astral blessing.

karmas damage mitigation:

6 second CD shield, another 6 second CD shield = ~1400-1600 damage shielded.
(using both mantras) 4.5 second CD heal, another 4.5 second CD heal. thats just a lot of HP healed depending on current HP. all of this being unloaded in 12 seconds.

opening up with the shield, then heal Qing right after, then repeat once.
6-12 seconds is a long time during a team fight though. You're likely to only get one rotation out. If you get 2 rotations out it's just cleanup for one side or another. Maybe you can salvage you and a friend when both of you would have died, or maybe you can finish the others off, but others could do this as well. Karma is special precisely because of exactly how much she can do in one burst. Yes she can theoretically mitigate a large amount of damage over time, but it would take some incredibly select situations to be able to leverage that. Given the AP build Karma has, what could other supports do in a similar amount of time?

Also keep in mind that while the shield is a static value it's temporary and covers one person, the Mantra'd heavenly wave isn't that great of a heal unless you have multiple targets. It's pretty nice being %hp so you can heal tanks too, but it'll still take several applications at least for half of someone's health. Where someone like Sona might have already healed them to full. Also Sona has the benefit of both hard CC and the ability to easily react to incoming damage. Karma must guess which champion they will attack and hope they are not smart enough to kill another champion first (or Karma) and then hit the now vulnerable champion.


Wise counter-play can greatly mitigate Karma's strengths. This is why she is strong and good in the hands of a good player, but is not a high elo champion. It's an odd sort of balance with her. Decent to good laning, strong damage, strong pushing, strong support skills, but all she is ultimately able to be marginalized by exploiting her weaknesses and avoiding her strengths.


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kavinh the third

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Senior Member

07-23-2012

that'd be nice but i think they'll have an issue with abilities that remove mana they changed the old wit's end cause of some issue with it.


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