3 laners Vs 2 laners + jungler

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Riot Taco Storm

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Associate QA Lead

07-11-2012
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicknameMy View Post
Actually, just play Darius, freewin. Regardless if the enemy picks a jungler or not.
That's weird. We've never lost to a Darius. In fact our last three games on Taco's Banditos have all been victories against Darius.


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NicknameMy

Senior Member

07-11-2012

Well, did that Darius build full tank or did he build ad? Because a full tank Darius is basically at one point unkillable while he still deals heavy true dmg. Also, armor is completly useless vs him, he is basically a bruiser-counter.

If you classify him, he is basically a super tank bruiser assasin, which can instantly kill your ad-carry, ignore the nuke of your ap-carry and shut down your bruisers hardcore.

The only thing which can stop him is kiting, but hey, if he got a team which picks 2 cc-heavy bruisers (nautilus+singed or so), hurray, you win.


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Th3 Herbalist

Senior Member

07-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Taco Storm View Post
We've had pretty good success getting an early dragon with fiddles top lane and shyvana jungle. Fiddles is ridiculous when it comes to tanking that dragon, and they never expect it that early on. Mind you, that was at low Elos
Still, that confirms what I'm saying. It's easy to get, especially with two people or more people. You can get it alone, and Shyvana is fantastic at it, but most people with common sense are going to think "hmm, top lane is missing and i haven't seen Shyvana for a while," plop a ward at Dragon and surprise, a double kill.

EDIT: I'm by no means a "high" ELO player, but our team's usual tactic for dragon is to wait until either they start it to jump them while they're doing it or wait until at least one of them are dead and do it as a team. It's just too much of a gamble with how small of a distance both teams have to travel to get to it to do it alone.


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Th3 Herbalist

Senior Member

07-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicknameMy View Post
Well, did that Darius build full tank or did he build ad? Because a full tank Darius is basically at one point unkillable while he still deals heavy true dmg. Also, armor is completly useless vs him, he is basically a bruiser-counter.

If you classify him, he is basically a super tank bruiser assasin, which can instantly kill your ad-carry, ignore the nuke of your ap-carry and shut down your bruisers hardcore.

The only thing which can stop him is kiting, but hey, if he got a team which picks 2 cc-heavy bruisers (nautilus+singed or so), hurray, you win.
Jayce poops all over Darius.


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OakSpace

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Recruiter

07-11-2012

Here is a strange solution to the question and I have seen it work really well.

Team comp: Master Yi, Shen, Graves

Team lanes: Yi top, Shen and Graves bot

Now for the trick that seems to work. Master Yi takes smite and roles into the jungle top taking out a small camp before minions are fighting then runs into lane going back and forth with his counter lane. When smite is off cd back to the jungle for a camp again. This Yi is now getting ahead can roam and only needs to be back in lane when pushed to his turret. The reason Shen is needed is that he does have the ult to get to Yi when he is in trouble and graves is there to farm bot lane and add to the range department.

As you can see it is like having three laners but with a small twist where Yi can still viably stunt the other junglers role if you are fighting a team with two laners and a jungler.


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Luego

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07-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryogen1x View Post
Jayce poops all over Darius.
Really? I obviously haven't seen a good Jayce yet. I'd estimate I've seen about 20 over my last 15-20 games, and I think I've seen *maybe* 1 or 2 even go neutral. I consider Jayce a horrible liability in 3s.


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EdgarAlanPWN88

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07-11-2012

Going back to the original point of the thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Taco Storm View Post
I love all the answers I'm getting. Just to clear things:

1) I 100% agree that jungling is hard in 3s. I've been playing it for a while now and am aware of the changes we've made

2) The goal of this thread was mostly to start a discussion regarding the various merits/disadvantages of jungling. My team always has a jungler because we can handle 2v1 lanes with ease most of the time.

3) The jungler is certainly way more difficult in 3s, but does that mean it's not worth it? The advantages that the buffs confer is just too large to ignore. Dragon is pretty much like getting Baron + acing the enemy team when it comes to the gold you get.
I used to play TT exclusively, before Dominion came out. Never did Ranked, but had a pretty decent win/loss ratio on normal TT. Got back into playing TT two months ago, and got back into the groove. Here are my thoughts.

One reason that has been mentioned frequently is the difficulty. This reduces the benefit of jungling substantially for several reasons. First, going into a solo que game with a jungler is a very uncertain proposition. I am always worried that they are going to die to camps, not gank successfully, or get warded and harassed out of the jungle. Basically, they will be an ineffective member of the team.

Second, the buffs of TT are geared toward ganking. But, it is very difficult to get the buffs for two reasons. The mid lizard camp is warded for the majority of the game because of buff protection and gank protection. If there is a jungler, as soon as I hit 75g, I go back and buy a ward for mid. The other problem is that the top camps respawn randomly. I never know when I go into the top jungle if there will be a ghost and wolf, or two wolves.

Third, (mentioned before), the size of the jungle is a problem. One jungler can keep the jungle cleared, but it also means they have to be on the enemy side of the map much of the time. For an unskilled jungler, this means harassment from the enemy team, or even possibly getting shut down.

One problem with dragon is the ease that the enemy top laner can disrupt you taking it. Very few junglers can solo dragon early, and when the other top laner disappears for a wave it is a sign to check dragon. One person can cause both the jungler and top laner to recall when dragon is attacking them.

I also dont like bad TT junglers that much because I often play top lane Mordekaiser. Who, at level 4 can start clearing a wave, then run off into the jungle to clear a camp. And get back before the next wave has advanced. Yes, this doesnt pressure the other top laner, but it does give a significant advantage in gold and xp.

Having had the opportunity to play with some of the Season 1 top 3v3 players, I agree that jungle is extremely lucrative when played with a skilled team. But, it requires a skilled jungler and communication in the team to coordinate ganks. This skill does not show up often in solo que normals.


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ApackofKoalas

Senior Member

07-11-2012

When I first started out playing ranked 3's we sort of grew with the game as our Elo grew. So essentially we ran two bot and myself top. Most games I would get so fed that bot splitting cs was not a big deal. Only thing we had to do different was not rush that stupid bot bush which everyone sub 1300 does. We looked for new gank opportunities. Then at 1300 teams started having (Bad) junglers and we could zone and kill the 2v1 so easy it did not matter. Once we hit 1350 and 1400 on our first team that's when we realized we needed a jungler because we were getting stomped.

So we were unhappy with out Elo and re rolled a new team and ran jungler from the start and climbed to 1400 super fast. Then we went back to our main team and braught it back to 1400. Then our jungler quit and I had to assume the roll so a new guy could take top. Unfortunately we have not had the chance to play a ranked with him since he is not used to the jungler yet.


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Mavrik V

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Senior Member

07-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryogen1x View Post
Still, that confirms what I'm saying. It's easy to get, especially with two people or more people. You can get it alone, and Shyvana is fantastic at it, but most people with common sense are going to think "hmm, top lane is missing and i haven't seen Shyvana for a while," plop a ward at Dragon and surprise, a double kill.

EDIT: I'm by no means a "high" ELO player, but our team's usual tactic for dragon is to wait until either they start it to jump them while they're doing it or wait until at least one of them are dead and do it as a team. It's just too much of a gamble with how small of a distance both teams have to travel to get to it to do it alone.
My tactic for insta-winning Jungle with Shyvanna is rush Wriggle's, then always carry a Vision+Sight ward. Wriggle's ward goes in the bush beside their first turret. Sight ward goes in their top buff camp, Vision ward goes in the center of dragon spawn. Through this, the enemy will be seen 100% of the time before they will attempt to dragon and/or steal dragon, and it gives them at most 10s to respond to a Dragon kill (in which I probably baited them to come to dragon to teamfight anyway. Most opponents will struggle to keep up Sight wards, let alone counter my Vision ward spam.


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Mavrik V

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07-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luego View Post
Really? I obviously haven't seen a good Jayce yet. I'd estimate I've seen about 20 over my last 15-20 games, and I think I've seen *maybe* 1 or 2 even go neutral. I consider Jayce a horrible liability in 3s.
A good Jayce is scary in lane. Start as ranged and drop you to half hp, then begin with the 5 hit combo spam. If he's versus someone stronger than himself, he can just spam ranged damage and counter any gap closers (Jax leap or Trynd spin for example) with a quick Thundering Blow, then spam more ranged damage. The only people I can picture out laning him are extreme lane bullies like Panth/GP/Malph.