A Thornmail that only works for melee attacks

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Catnium

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Senior Member

06-25-2012

uhm torn mail is countered by life steal ?

i thought it was the other way around

also why you buying torn mail on tanks and bruisers ? you already got a frozen hearth that 20% attack speed reduction ( not to mention your high armor as a tank/bruiser) is ruining torn mails potential vs auto attackers such as trynd, ash, miss perfect and yi

torn mail is more for carry's because carries don't have allot of armor even with torn mail, so auto attackers will do more damage to them hence torn mail will also reflect more damage and pretty much make your enemy's life steal allot less
there is plenty of math around on the web about why frozen hearth is for bruisers and why torn mail is for carry's ,just go dig around on any of those fan site forums and such


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Snoop Nome

Game Designer

06-25-2012
1 of 1 Riot Posts

I'm not convinced that Thornmail is too strong, or that ranged AD are weak, especially after spending some time playing and watching games on EUW.

Thornmail is pretty dependent on having a decent HP pool to make use of, and unlike other defensive items, doesn't provide secondary stats or beneficial effects. Randuin's gives HP and a great active, Frozen Heart gives a buttload of CDR, etc. Second, the best viable ranged AD on the map aren't really countered by Thornmail. Vayne, Ezreal, even Kog'maw all get their damage from sources unaffected by Thornmail. There's a case for nerfing Thornmail to help viability of other ranged AD, but it's a pretty weak argument since Randuin's and Frozen Heart pose a much larger threat and aren't nearly as conditional.


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Mirror

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I'm not convinced that Thornmail is too strong, or that ranged AD are weak, especially after spending some time playing and watching games on EUW.

Thornmail is pretty dependent on having a decent HP pool to make use of, and unlike other defensive items, doesn't provide secondary stats or beneficial effects. Randuin's gives HP and a great active, Frozen Heart gives a buttload of CDR, etc. Second, the best viable ranged AD on the map aren't really countered by Thornmail. Vayne, Ezreal, even Kog'maw all get their damage from sources unaffected by Thornmail. There's a case for nerfing Thornmail to help viability of other ranged AD, but it's a pretty weak argument since Randuin's and Frozen Heart pose a much larger threat and aren't nearly as conditional.
Ezreal? His Q is an on-hit, which means it procs Thornmail, unless you meant AP Ezreal.


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Myrmidont

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Thornmail only helps whom is getting attacked why would you be getting attacked if you are tanking them by ccing them? surely they would attack your allies while you cc them

the as slows on FH and Randuins are much more helpful in this regard? yes as is the slow on Frozen Mallet/alternate


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catnium View Post
torn mail is more for carry's because carries don't have allot of armor even with torn mail, so auto attackers will do more damage to them hence torn mail will also reflect more damage and pretty much make your enemy's life steal allot less
there is plenty of math around on the web about why frozen hearth is for bruisers and why torn mail is for carry's ,just go dig around on any of those fan site forums and such
Thornmail reflects pre-mitigation damage, so it reflects the same amount whether you have 100 armour or 1,000.


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Hidden Sniper

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Senior Member

06-25-2012

It's just another item from Dota that didn't get "translated" well into LoL imo...


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Ryzol Ryzo Ryz R

Senior Member

06-25-2012

I don't see how you could make a cheap AD carry item that a bruiser wouldn't want.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

06-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
There's a case for nerfing Thornmail to help viability of other ranged AD, but it's a pretty weak argument since Randuin's and Frozen Heart pose a much larger threat and aren't nearly as conditional.
Doesn't that mean there is a case for buffing thornmail to make it a viable alternative to the above items or would you rather nerf the latter? Secondly opinions on Sunfire Cape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Thornmail reflects pre-mitigation damage, so it reflects the same amount whether you have 100 armour or 1,000.
However still reduced by the targets MR, one of the reasons its a weak item unless you have alot of magic pen. This is also the reason Sunfire Cape is terrible.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

06-26-2012

Sunfire Cape was recently buffed.

A whole 14.2% increase in the passive damage.
Huehuehue!
Sorry, couldn't help it.


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GenesisV1

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Senior Member

06-26-2012

If you are a ranged carry and you're attacking a tank with 280+ armor, thornmail, and more than 3000 health by YOURSELF, even with a fully stacked bloodthirster, you are going to get hurt if you try to kill him from full to zero. In this scenario, thornmail is a great item. This is because bloodthirster heals 20% of damage you DEAL and thornmail reflects 30% of your damage BEFORE mitigations. Let's say you have 400 AD and infinity edge. You crit for 2.5 x 400, or 1000 damage exact. Thornmail would deal 300 magic damage to you each crit. Let's say after armor/armor pen, their armor reduces your damage by 50%. So you're critting 500s on them. Your bloodthirster is only going to heal you for .2 x 500, or 100 health per shot. Lifesteal is a counter to thornmail, but it does not fully nullify its effect.

If you position well and your team helps you take down that tank, you will suffer very little harm because you won't have to hit him as much, and your team will support you with heals/shields. In this scenario, thornmail isn't very good for anything other than cheap armor.

Moral of the story, if you're a ranged carry, you should generally avoid hitting thornmail users until your team can help you focus them down. If you're a ranged carry's teammate, you should help your carry kill thornmail users so that they will take less damage. If you find yourself taking too much thornmail damage, keep in mind it is magic damage and you can mitigate it slightly with magic resist items.

The item is situationally effective and is balanced in my opinion. It's not a highly sought after item because it doesn't provide much utility, but that is compensated for the fact that it's a very cheap 100 armor.


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