Straight AD vs. Tanky AD

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Oresh

Junior Member

06-07-2012

Hi all,

This is my first post and hoping to get some insight.

I've been playing this game these last few months and have been alright in normals. Before i got Darius, I used to roll Ashe or Varus full AD builds. For ashe, i followed mobafire's top rated guide and similarly for Varus. However, once i got Darius and experimented with him the first few days he was out, i saw that if i tried going straight AD, i'd get destroyed since i had no real defenses.I switched up the build and started going more tanky and having a closer build to this one.

So, this made me think what a ranged AD would look like with a similar build. This is what i got.

MATH:

Comparing the 2 builds: Tanky AD Ashe vs. Full AD Ashe

For the tanky build, you lose

39 AD
.362 Att. Speed

to gain

895 HP
45 Armor
26 MR

So my question is, what is the benefit from a full AD carry like Ashe or Varus? To me it seems like a tanky version of Ashe and Varus would be more beneficial since you trade a small amount of AD and Att. Speed, to gain a large amount of survivability.


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XCodes

Senior Member

06-07-2012

You treat them like small numbers, but that 39 AD and .362 Attack Speed lost actually cuts your damage output by about 30%.

Now, it may be a different story for Varus, Vayne, etc. since they have ways other than auto-attacking to do damage, but for Ashe it's better to build a more pure damage build and let your tanks do their job.


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Oresh

Junior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by XCodes View Post
You treat them like small numbers, but that 39 AD and .362 Attack Speed lost actually cuts your damage output by about 30%.

Now, it may be a different story for Varus, Vayne, etc. since they have ways other than auto-attacking to do damage, but for Ashe it's better to build a more pure damage build and let your tanks do their job.
Thanks for the reply. Maybe Ashe was a bad example. What about the other AD ranges?


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XCodes

Senior Member

06-07-2012

For most of them, the same holds true, although there are some exceptions.

Vayne, for example, might get a lot of use out of a Frozen Mallet. She has a shorter range than other AD Carries, so the HP helps out a bit, and since she doesn't have a slow from a skill, the on-hit will help her land her 3-shots and deal more damage that way. This also applies to Varus to a much lesser extent (since he has an active slow and his pretty awesome Ult, although he still wants to do a 3-hit routine).

That said, the tankiness resulting from this item is more a coincidence as opposed to a design goal.


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RiotTiza

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eSports Coordinator

06-07-2012
1 of 1 Riot Posts

Hey Oresh,

I like the creativity! It's fun trying non-standard builds - you should give the tanky build a shot in a couple of bot games to see how you like it. Sometimes playing can show you what you need to see without the math.

As far as actual commentary, I could see this being surprisingly effective on an AD that needs to get up close and personal. XCodes is right- you're giving up a LOT of damage output, so you need to gain a whole lot of benefit out of the tankiness. I would give this build a shot on Vayne or Graves - both benefit from being in the middle of the fray, as opposed to hanging around the outside like an Ashe or Caitlyn would. Vayne's steroids and Silver Bolts will keep her output moderately high, and the Silver Bolt procs will keep her damage up against higher-HP targets. Graves gets more damage off of Buckshot from shooting somebody right in the face with it, so being able to use Quickshot to go in rather than get out would be pretty cool. Varus might be an interesting choice as well - although he has really good range, his % hp damage with Blight stacks gives him a constant damage output, and he has a lot of utility that doesn't go away without damage.

Another thing to consider is that your team will need more physical damage output than usual to make up the damage they're not getting from their AD carry - make sure you let them know how you're mixing up the build before trying something new!


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Oresh

Junior Member

06-07-2012

@all who've replied,

Thanks for the awesome replies. I think i just didn't realize how big of a dps loss 39 ad and .362 att. speed could be. I Just figured in the grand scheme of things, it didn't match the increased survivability.

Continuing with this, how would this play out with Draven? I bought him when he came out and he seems like an ideal candidate for the tanky AD build since his Q can make up for damage lost, and his W can make up for the speed loss. Any comments?


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Ueber

Senior Member

06-07-2012

Melee DPS like Darius almost always have to build tankier than their ranged counterparts. Sure, a glass cannon build can work, but they tend to be better early game and fall off late when you can get blown apart. Having ranged attacks is a huge advantage when you're going all in offensively. Most AD carries also have some disengage ability build in to help them stay at range.

That said, are there situations where building some survivability is appropriate? Absolutely--you're no good to your team if you are dead immediately after a team fight begins. If you're in a draft mode and know they have strong assassins like Nocturne, going some defense and, importantly, playing a champion who can build tanky while remaining effective DPS. Vayne and Kog'Maw are two ranged DPS heroes that can go a Madreds/tanky--the attackspeed/% health synergies well with their %health based skills.


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Xecht

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Member

06-07-2012

The survivability at endgame is increased only in the burst scenario. You do have to realize that you are also losing the lifesteal from your bloodthirster, which in an extended conflict can easily heal your entire health in 4-6 hits. Overall the tanky build will be more forgiving to bad positioning, but if you would be able to survive a fight with 10 health full AD, you can be back in the fight after clearing a wave or jungle camp. The same isn't true of the tanky build. You have the regen, but its nowhere near the same level of healing. Also you are losing a considerable amount of critical strike chance with the loss of the phantom dancer. With this in mind realize that it is probably even more than 30% damage output lost, specifically in your burst. Think how often you see an AD carry double crit the enemy squishy and drop them right there.

Overall you really arent going to be able to compete on the same level as the enemy AD carry, especially a Kog'maw or Vayne who will simply melt you instantly even with a tank build. Just my thoughts on the issue though. Incidentally Draven would probably work better than any other AD carry with this build because he likes the harass trade with his spinning axe so much, but it still probably isn't going to be optimal.


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Brother Of Dux

Senior Member

06-07-2012

you should be stacking minimal bulk and taking minimal damage, because 45 extra armor is not going to be worth anything when yi flashes in with highlander


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Oresh

Junior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xecht View Post
You do have to realize that you are also losing the lifesteal from your bloodthirster, which in an extended conflict can easily heal your entire health in 4-6 hits.

Awesome replies from everyone. Thanks again. I just realized when you mentioned this, that you also lose the stacks from BT. With that loss, the AD racks up to 79 AD lost for tanky build. Thats a lot. Thanks to everyone for giving me insight into this.


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