PSA: stop buying LW on ad carries if Noone but the tank has armor.

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kijik

Senior Member

06-03-2012

Seriously. It's so ineffective its not funny. Here's a little math.
Let's say base armor for enemies.without armor items late game is 100 and that's extremely high balling.
LW=40% off for YOU alone. That brings their armor down to 60.
BC=45 armor off the target after a measly 3 hits.. For you and everyone else. 55 armor on them AND your bruisers will love you for it.
Not to mention BC giving 15 more damage and attack speed. Obviously superior in those regards.
Just because the cookie cutter build is IE/PD/BT/LW doesn't mean you can't change it slightly for stronger damage output.
Words fail.to describe how many times I've seen adcs grabbing LW when Noone on the enemy team has armor and wondering why their damage still isn't all that insane.


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SavageWolves

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Senior Member

06-03-2012

There are two reasons to buy LW when only the tank has a lot of armor:

1. The tank is going to go after you. If he's the only one in range, you will need to be able to damage and kill him.

2. It will discourage enemy players from actually buying more armor.

Also, consider that the AD carry will likely have the 10% Apen mastery, resulting in 50% armor pen, not the 40 you used in your calculation.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 Armor:

LW + 10% mastery: 100 armor -> 50 armor
BC + 10% mastery: 100 armor - 45 armor -> 55 armor + 10% pen -> 49.5 Armor.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 armor Last Whisperer is actually better, because it applies the same damage from the first hit, while BC needs 3 hits to reach full damage output.

Cleaver is a better early game item when the enemy's armor is below 100. With the mastery, ~100 armor is when LW will be superior.


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defleppardruelz

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Senior Member

06-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageWolves View Post
There are two reasons to buy LW when only the tank has a lot of armor:

1. The tank is going to go after you. If he's the only one in range, you will need to be able to damage and kill him.

2. It will discourage enemy players from actually buying more armor.

Also, consider that the AD carry will likely have the 10% Apen mastery, resulting in 50% armor pen, not the 40 you used in your calculation.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 Armor:

LW + 10% mastery: 100 armor -> 50 armor
BC + 10% mastery: 100 armor - 45 armor -> 55 armor + 10% pen -> 49.5 Armor.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 armor Last Whisperer is actually better, because it applies the same damage from the first hit, while BC needs 3 hits to reach full damage output.

Cleaver is a better early game item when the enemy's armor is below 100. With the mastery, ~100 armor is when LW will be superior.

^ this


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Mestaaja

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Senior Member

06-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavageWolves View Post
There are two reasons to buy LW when only the tank has a lot of armor:

1. The tank is going to go after you. If he's the only one in range, you will need to be able to damage and kill him.

2. It will discourage enemy players from actually buying more armor.

Also, consider that the AD carry will likely have the 10% Apen mastery, resulting in 50% armor pen, not the 40 you used in your calculation.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 Armor:

LW + 10% mastery: 100 armor -> 50 armor
BC + 10% mastery: 100 armor - 45 armor -> 55 armor + 10% pen -> 49.5 Armor.

Hence, on an enemy with 100 armor Last Whisperer is actually better, because it applies the same damage from the first hit, while BC needs 3 hits to reach full damage output.

Cleaver is a better early game item when the enemy's armor is below 100. With the mastery, ~100 armor is when LW will be superior.

And you effectively ignored the extra dmg and attack speed on BC, as well as the fact that it effects all physical damage dealt by the rest of your team.
Also, percentage armor penetration stacks multiplicatively afaik.


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til Days of Blue

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Senior Member

06-03-2012

The math is wrong btw, 10% + 40% is not 50% in this case, as they don't stack additively

pretty sure it is something like 46%


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lastchancexi

Senior Member

06-03-2012

Cleaver is not really an effective item.

I feel that if LW is not a good buy, you should buy Bloodthirster or QSS/GA/Banshee's Veil. Black Cleaver just doesn't give useful stats because getting in a ton of autos is hard, because people do come after you (if they're smart).


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defleppardruelz

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Senior Member

06-03-2012

getting 3 successive hits on someone as a ranged ad carry is actually pretty hard..unless you are facing a bunch of kids that refuse to target you..in which case you might as well build full glass cannon maxing attack speed and stacking damage...in some actual serious games the last whisper is going to be better almost every time..getting it third means armor is no longer a problem even if they start to stack it later.. if they have no armor at all, they are pretty much guaranteed to lose, you will start 2 shotting all of them..


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Nax Karaal

Member

06-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by defleppardruelz View Post
getting 3 successive hits on someone as a ranged ad carry is actually pretty hard..unless you are facing a bunch of kids that refuse to target you..in which case you might as well build full glass cannon maxing attack speed and stacking damage...in some actual serious games the last whisper is going to be better almost every time..getting it third means armor is no longer a problem even if they start to stack it later.. if they have no armor at all, they are pretty much guaranteed to lose, you will start 2 shotting all of them..
This is something you can't disagree with, I think.

Once you get the three stack, yes it will deal more dps until ~215 armor, but you need to get them. (2 stack : ~165 armor, 1 stack : ~120 armor, (first hit if the armor reduction is applied after : ~70 armor) add to this the fact that you have to manage your hit and run with 1.7~1.8 AS instead of 1.5~1.6 AS.

Also, I have calculated these number considering the dps with the full classic build (IE+PD+BT+BG). If you want this to be really accurate, it must be with a sufficient time in fight, something like 6 to 10 seconds on one target (enjoy probability en statistics !)

Plus, it's 575 more gold.

But, after writing this, I think it need more thought on it. What we need to know is :
- is the debuff applied right for the first hit or for those who follow ;
- what is the average damage for the three hit with BC and LW.

Anyway, without considering this, you need to consider how is the game working. Is there a lot of teamfight or is it more gank-like ? In the first case, i'd say take LW, in the second take BC.

I will try to take more time to answer the two conditions that I have expressed before.

Edit : according to http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/The_Black_Cleaver
The very first auto attack does not get the benefit of the armor reduction. Physical damage from the auto attack is calculated first, and the debuff is applied after. This means the full benefit of the reduction is seen on the 4th hit after all 3 debuffs have been applied.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

06-04-2012

wow are people actually reading at all

this is if the enemy hasnt bought any armor at all, obviously its not worth it, if they have no armor you shouldnt be penetrating, you should be reducing, and with the amount of champions who have armor reduction (not penetration), last whisper isnt worth it. Last whisper is a counter item, you cant counter something if they dont have it to counter

also penetration can not reduce armor below 0, reduction can. reduction is applied before penetration. all values of similar stat is added together, so yes LW + mastery is 50%, but this is applied AFTER the reduction is been in place.

also ranged AD should be able to attack 3 times quickly, if you cant, what the hell are you doing? your not gonna end up killing people with only 1-2 hits, so clearly you need to hit them 3 times or more before they react to kill them, unless you plan on just kill stealing all game.

also the fact that this black cleaver will allow other players to deal more damage is a significant increase in team fights. this cant be ignored, and thus will provide much more damage potential than a last whisper.

last whisper will also wont help with farming much besides the 40 AD while getting a black cleaver does due to it being reduction and thus can reduce minions and jungle monsters thus farming faster and more efficiently. also 500 gold diffference isnt as much as people may think, should only take a 2-3 minion waves, if your last hitting and getting all the gold which an AD carry should be doing regardless, if your not then your putting yourself into gank danger and risking yourself for low rewards.

also last whisper does not deter people from buying more armor, it just reduce it's effectiveness, but its still a solid way of reducing armor. similar to how just because a player buys thornmail, does not mean a person would not buy lifesteal, cuz lifesteal will still migitate a ton of the thornmail damage, not all of it, but a large chunk.

but bottom line, against champions with no armor, this is not a good item to get

plus its not the job of the carry to take care of the tank, the job of the carry is to take out the weakest link to make the fight 1 less enemy champion in the fight as soon as possible.


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defleppardruelz

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Senior Member

06-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkenDragon View Post
wow are people actually reading at all

this is if the enemy hasnt bought any armor at all, obviously its not worth it, if they have no armor you shouldnt be penetrating, you should be reducing, and with the amount of champions who have armor reduction (not penetration), last whisper isnt worth it. Last whisper is a counter item, you cant counter something if they dont have it to counter

also penetration can not reduce armor below 0, reduction can. reduction is applied before penetration. all values of similar stat is added together, so yes LW + mastery is 50%, but this is applied AFTER the reduction is been in place.

also ranged AD should be able to attack 3 times quickly, if you cant, what the hell are you doing? your not gonna end up killing people with only 1-2 hits, so clearly you need to hit them 3 times or more before they react to kill them, unless you plan on just kill stealing all game.

also the fact that this black cleaver will allow other players to deal more damage is a significant increase in team fights. this cant be ignored, and thus will provide much more damage potential than a last whisper.

last whisper will also wont help with farming much besides the 40 AD while getting a black cleaver does due to it being reduction and thus can reduce minions and jungle monsters thus farming faster and more efficiently. also 500 gold diffference isnt as much as people may think, should only take a 2-3 minion waves, if your last hitting and getting all the gold which an AD carry should be doing regardless, if your not then your putting yourself into gank danger and risking yourself for low rewards.

also last whisper does not deter people from buying more armor, it just reduce it's effectiveness, but its still a solid way of reducing armor. similar to how just because a player buys thornmail, does not mean a person would not buy lifesteal, cuz lifesteal will still migitate a ton of the thornmail damage, not all of it, but a large chunk.

but bottom line, against champions with no armor, this is not a good item to get

plus its not the job of the carry to take care of the tank, the job of the carry is to take out the weakest link to make the fight 1 less enemy champion in the fight as soon as possible.

how often do you see absolutely no one get armor on the enemy team? are you playing ranked games? of course you are not going to 1/2 shot someone (unless really they have no armor added and you are full build, then you might), but getting 3 hits off in a row on the same person should be a challenge. if they have no armor you're better off getting more survivability (GA and a frozen mallet for example), in case you mess up or your team fails to protect you, you will probably still be able to kill and live. armor is basically stacked in almost every game i have played for the past 5 months. frozen heart, randuins, atmas, GA, aegis of the legion, zhonyas, ninja tabi are all pretty common items and even still there are armor items people buy...sunfire cape, thornmail wriggles. any player who is jungling/topping/supporting should have +19 armor just from runes and masteries alone..even more if they choose armor marks/glyphs/quints. it sounds like you are having games where you can successfully stand there and auto attack there whole team down, champ by champ, which normally doesn't happen in games i play or watch.


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