One Tier List to rule them all

First Riot Post
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A12MO12

Senior Member

06-02-2012

regory - 1957 elo
Sauron - 2756 elo

I wonder who has a better understanding of champions at high level play?

As to your argument, the tanky derps can almost all destroy fiddlesticks, He does do good damage but you don't mention that a lot of them carry ignite/executioners or some sort of cc. Nearly all of them will out dps fiddles.

WW can straight up just right click him and come out on top.
Wukong can destroy him once he comes out of the fear. (q,e, ult)
Pantheon will kill him with just 1 spell rotation and an auto attack afterwards
Poppy, a wall smash, Q, auto attack, Q would be enough
Urgot,why would he ever get in fiddles range? he could sit back, push creeps, land the corrosive charge and 3-4 missles will take him down to 1/4 health.
Yorick with a sanguine or even just a executioner he will deal way more damage then fiddles can heal.
Darius it's a massacre you just wait for fear to come off, Q,W,E get stacks and ult him
Lulu Glitter lance has fairly short CD and she can hit fiddles with this after turning him into a muffin,
AlistarThis beast is usually near his allies or at a turret if fiddles makes the mistake of attacking him near turret he can eat a pulverize and headbutt into turret.
JaxDoes tons of damage

I've had success killing fiddles with many champs other then just the ones mentioned such as amumu, J4, talon, ryze, maokai, and many more i don't remember off the top of my head. Point is anything he brings to the table, other champs bring something better. He is fun to play though, i'll give him that.

As for your claim about kat, she can at least escape from fights with shunpo, if fiddles gets caught he's dead.

Fiddles is also not better then blitz. Blitz has 3 CC, and one of the best initiations in the game (granted you do have to land the grab). Once a blitz is on you it's ridiculous trying to get away given his constant mini ghost from over drive.

Edit: misread the lulu part


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Fiddle wins 1v1 early vs some champions, especially if he keeps kiting them.

But you don't have to 1v1 Fiddle and in 2v2 fights someone just disrupts the drain, and he loses hard-core later in the game.

Also, he compared Lulu to Janna, not to Fiddle.


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Regory

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by A12MO12 View Post
regory - 1957 elo
Sauron - 2756 elo

I wonder who has a better understanding of champions at high level play?
Isiah Thomas - All-time great basketball player. Terrible executive and coach of the game.
Bill Belichick - Never played a snap of football. Knows the game more than almost anyone ever has.

Knowing the game and playing the game are two different things. Besides which I'm not a dedicated Dominion player, I'm sure I could better myself a couple hundred Elo at worst just tryharding Urgot for a day or two. <3 I'm not going to grind rating just to say I told you so, though.

... Warwick is not going to beat Fiddle 1v1. -_-


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A12MO12

Senior Member

06-02-2012

did you say ww doesn't beat fiddles? What? Every ww i see has ignite, i'll do a custom ww vs fiddles to see who comes out on top earl, mid and late


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ShawNuff

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Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by A12MO12 View Post
did you say ww doesn't beat fiddles? What? Every ww i see has ignite, i'll do a custom ww vs fiddles to see who comes out on top earl, mid and late
Fdru used to play Fiddle a lot when Warwick was fotm. It was pretty effective against him. You have to consider that both of them are healing based champs, so if you want Warwick to run ignite then Fiddle gets it too.


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A12MO12

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawNuff View Post
Fdru used to play Fiddle a lot when Warwick was fotm. It was pretty effective against him. You have to consider that both of them are healing based champs, so if you want Warwick to run ignite then Fiddle gets it too.
yeah 1v1 so they both itemize vs each other


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Shoopman

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Another Lulu question. Is there a way to itemize her to be more independent, meaning able to 1v1 people and win? With flat Mpen and frozen heart my damage is still pretty low, I usually have to stall people until another teammate comes to finish them off. I also feel that the strength of Lulu as a champion is directly related to the strength of your team. The more people you have around you, he more effective she becomes IMO. If your team is bad and focuses badly or makes bad plays, there is little you can do to fix it, however if your team is coordinated and doesn't do stupid things, she rockets the team to an unstoppable level. Basically what I'm asking is, is there a certain way to play/build that lets you be effective without your team while still maintaining her massive teamfight/skirmish presence?


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Volandum

Senior Member

06-02-2012

You could pretend you're Kayle and build accordingly. The max cdr is non-negotiable though.


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Sauron

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Lulu does 260 + 280 with two crappy ratios, on seven- and ten-second base cooldowns respectively. Regardless of how she compares to Janna, her damage is quite modest (read: bad) and being "experienced" doesn't magically make her deal more damage. The watch-'em-play argument doesn't really work for video games. A better player will put her tools to better use, sure, but you don't deal more damage unless you itemize for it.
Except that it does work for video games. It actually works better for video games than it does for anything else save board games, as they are state-driven and the paths can be predicted. You obviously have not seen a good Lulu play. Kiting is her game, and she outranges and outharasses practically everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
...and so on. Indeed only two completely lack a way to interrupt Fiddlesticks' Drain, three just with ults. I think you underestimate his dueling prowess, though. Fiddlesticks Drain tanking doods comes out on top against almost everyone but Jax or well-equipped AD carries, it's like getting Twin Fang spammed by Cass except with built-in 80% spell vamp. ;/ Yes, you can interrupt it but Terrify will buy him the time to re-cast... and then unless you're Riven, you lose. Good luck if you're literally diving him under a turret.
Fiddle's Drain doesn't come out on top against virtually anyone in Dominion, Grievous Wounds or not. Do you know why? Because early in the game when Fiddle is most dangerous, people aren't going to engage him unless they have their SSs or CCs up. When midgame hits, people slaughter Fiddle and it continues that way into the lategame, with the one brief respite that is Zhonya's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
In a team fight, he can just sit back and chill with his three-second fear and AoE silence protecting a carry or something. It's not much different from Janna doing her thing or Blitz doing his thing in a new package. The fact that he deals pretty strong damage (healing most of it back) if you ignore him to focus on other targets is just a really sweet perk, not like say Katarina where interrupting her channel basically kills her usefulness...
If you sit in the back, your carry gets dived instead, and if your carry is also in the back, then we don't engage at that time and probably move to another point to force a skirmish in the jungle.

Three second fear only happens at max rank against targets without tenacity. AoE silence is only threatening if max ranked. Drain only does "strong" damage when max ranked first early in the game. You're arguing like he starts the match at level 18.

Do you see why you give people the impression that you've never played Fiddlesticks in Dominion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
...whom you incidentally have at the bottom of Tier 3, a full tier ahead of Fiddlesticks. Care to explain that one to me, O Chosen One? You just keep throwing the "herp derp personal experience beats theory" argument at me (which isn't necessarily even true). Well what makes Katarina better in your experience then, since you didn't give her a little snippet explaining her tier placement? Both of them are pretty heavily-reliant on a channeled ability to deal their damage, which "almost all the champions picked regularly in Dominion" will interrupt. The difference is that Fiddlesticks can actually re-cast his in a few seconds if interrupted, oh and he also has the best targetted CC in the game which is pretty universally useful. Katarina... doesn't really do anything else to my knowledge. Grievous Wounds bot? That's the closest thing she has to utility. Build AD and play her as a generic bruiser? Sure, she's a worse tanky deeps than all the real ones but her spells scale about the same whether you build AP / AD, at least the latter gives your autoattacks some punch when you're inevitably CCed out of your ult time and again. But maybe you know something I don't.
Voracity and Shunpo. Many top players have used Katarina in a lot of games, including Jabe, Aesh, inFe eD, ZaberZ, MagiMelkor, and myself. She pairs extremely well with other AoEs, and unlike Fiddle she has no wind-up time and can juke multiple enemy CCs into not being used by simply not ulting.

Your "snarkiness" would be more effective if your arguments extended past your bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Snarkiness aside, I have plenty of experience. People may not look to me as an authority but the client's matchmaking has graced me with your presence on occasion, so I can't be a complete idiot. ;/ Experience with every champ? Of course not and I'm sure you don't either. The ones I'm arguing for? Viktor no, Fiddlesticks yes, and regarding Lulu/Janna my argument merely regards your misplaced priorities in what makes Lulu better which has nothing to do with experience. They're close enough that I think ranking them either way is perfectly justifiable but if Lulu is better, it's not because she deals more damage. Not only is that potentially untrue even at 0 AP (depending on Howling Gale's charge time), it's not important to their role as tanky, mobile CC bots.
I do have experience with every champ. I also have further experience seeing every champ played by others as well and the opportunity to see what works for them build-wise. As for arguing for Fiddlesticks, please play him; its quite obvious from the Drain tank statement that you only play him in SR.

And for Lulu, please watch zimike in some tournaments so that you have an idea of how she's properly played and why she is now on permaban status. Their damage is important to their role and that is why they're above the other tanky CCers. I really shouldn't have to explain Lulu vs Janna. These matches were showcased and shoutcasted so many times and it is easy to find them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Now I don't enjoy playing Viktor nor particularly care about him but come on, he's better than Evelynn bot. Dude's gotta slot in above Fiddlesticks at the very least.
Evelynn bot will beat Viktor bot, Viktor will win at 6, then Evelynn will come back and win all the other fights. You ever even try this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A12MO12 View Post
regory - 1957 elo
Sauron - 2756 elo

I wonder who has a better understanding of champions at high level play?
I would prefer it if ratings were kept out of discussions in this thread. That said, I've seen every scenario you describe and Fiddle gets horribly slaughtered in every one of them except early on against some lategamers such as WW.

Warwick versus Fiddles depends on when the fight happens, mostly for how much gold has been accrued. Fiddles will win early game because Warwick relies heavily on items to make his conventional build work. That said, Warwick is taken to tank for the team and sustain through bursts, not to be an unreliable caster with a lot of counterplay from intelligent opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Isiah Thomas - All-time great basketball player. Terrible executive and coach of the game.
Bill Belichick - Never played a snap of football. Knows the game more than almost anyone ever has.

Knowing the game and playing the game are two different things. Besides which I'm not a dedicated Dominion player, I'm sure I could better myself a couple hundred Elo at worst just tryharding Urgot for a day or two. <3 I'm not going to grind rating just to say I told you so, though.
My competitive team, my position, and our track record is publicly known stuff on these forums, which is why its kind of bewildering to see you try this route in an argument. Passive-aggressive ignoratio elenchi is not a fallacy or a form that is going to work in arguments against me nor against anyone else who actively promotes or participates in competitive play.


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Sauron

Senior Member

06-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoopman View Post
Another Lulu question. Is there a way to itemize her to be more independent, meaning able to 1v1 people and win? With flat Mpen and frozen heart my damage is still pretty low, I usually have to stall people until another teammate comes to finish them off. I also feel that the strength of Lulu as a champion is directly related to the strength of your team. The more people you have around you, he more effective she becomes IMO. If your team is bad and focuses badly or makes bad plays, there is little you can do to fix it, however if your team is coordinated and doesn't do stupid things, she rockets the team to an unstoppable level. Basically what I'm asking is, is there a certain way to play/build that lets you be effective without your team while still maintaining her massive teamfight/skirmish presence?
Its still flat mpen and tank, but beyond itemizing for their damage type you can do AP items or go with some onhit. Nashor's is a good example if you don't need FH. Lulu is a kite/attrition mage in 1v1 and is typically picked for bot as a counter to certain champs (otherwise you'd run her top), so keep that in mind. Lulu's game is to clear the bot lane and enable easy ganks on the opponent, but thanks her to current state she can often win 1v1 early game.