One Tier List to rule them all

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Psi21

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Won't lie thought Maokai would be a lot higher on the Top Lane tier list.

With all if not most of the top tier champs they all have some way to reduce damage taken. As in -this ability causes a reduction in damage taken.-

Thought an ult that extends a 20% reduction in damage (other than the turret) to the 4 of you storming together top mid or even end game or when you lost the node is pretty nice.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Nny

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

05-29-2012

While I agree Udyr isn't that good top and I'm not arguing for higher placement (I think he's tier-4 material but it's a semantics argument, plus I'm not high elo anyway which is what the list is based off of), there isn't a more fun champion to carry with. There's nothing like just being able to run strait at people, shrug off any damage they deal with shield+tank items, and then stun and kill them almost instantly from huge burst+sustained damage.

I also haven't touched him in awhile though for top because I also had way too many **** games where I got kited all day long. I especially hated playing him first windmill fight with 0 poking power what-so-ever.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sauron

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi21 View Post
Won't lie thought Maokai would be a lot higher on the Top Lane tier list.

With all if not most of the top tier champs they all have some way to reduce damage taken. As in -this ability causes a reduction in damage taken.-

Thought an ult that extends a 20% reduction in damage (other than the turret) to the 4 of you storming together top mid or even end game or when you lost the node is pretty nice.
Yeah, you're right, Maokai should be higher than that in top lane. His gap closer follows through others so it is considerably better for initiation than many others. He's not going to be a damager up there, or a terribly great jungle skirmisher, but he will certainly contribute in team fights and defending points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Lulu has 540 base + 1.1 scaling on her two damage spells. You can add up your own numbers compared to whichever other casters you want but suffice to say, her damage is quite low. I don't know where people get the idea that she does high damage. She only has two damaging spells with average base damage, typical cooldowns and, after being hit with the nerfbat twice, terrible ratios. Compared to Janna, the break-even point for damage is a mere 222 AP (no-charge Gale) on their respective two-spell combos.

You don't really pick either champion for their raw damage anyway, which is very poor for both. Lulu's major trump card is Wild Growth makes Monsoon look like doodoo. :[ But I still think Janna more than makes it up with better CC (AoE hard CC + targetted slow > AoE slow + targetted hard CC), better shield ratio and her amazing passive. Either way, you only have two champions separating them, so I'm arguing pretty minute differences I suppose.
In high Elo both Lulu and Janna are built as pure tanks with flat MPen. The ratio nerfs to Lulu really didn't do anything to her in Dominion. The amount of CC and kiting she can do due to her cooldowns allow her to rack up her base damages quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Fiddlesticks is obviously a terrible bot laner just as he's a terrible laner in SR. He can't clear minion waves if his life depended on it. I was strictly speaking as a top laner. He probably shouldn't be picked into teams that have a lot of ways to interrupt his Drain but with the best single-target CC in the game and a pseudo-AoE silence on top, he can never be too useless, no? Compared to someone like Maokai, whose utility is a bunch of relatively crappy soft CC, he's not so bad at all. Dark Wind even gives Fiddlesticks similar poking power, and of course he absolutely demands frequent hard CC or Drain will kill your babies. Maokai is just a pain in the ass to dive.
Frequent? Go ahead and Q->W me - if its just the two of us, I'll even purposely let you do it. That way when the fear wears off you're not out of range of my gap closer and I can burst you down before your Q is back up again, kiting with you the whole way. Terrify is only the best single-target CC in the game when it is considered seperate from the rest of Fiddle's skills.

Fiddlesticks' placement on this tier list is probably the result of experience moreso than any other champion. He absolutely falls flat in high Elo, and quite a few players have tried to make him work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
With its augment, Death Ray is similar in power to many other spells which instantly wipe minion waves by midgame (Gragas Q, Veigar W, etc.) and costs no more mana. I'm not going to defend him as a top choice by any means but it perfectly fits your description of Tier 3 champions: he can at least hold the fort pretty well. And with the possible exception of Xerath, one uniting trait of all your other T4-T5 champions is that they have little to no real AoE capability, making them very susceptible to steady pushing and getting neutralized when 4-5 waves of minions attack the point all at once. Viktor won't allow that.
If Viktor uses his W to stop someone from gap closing, the opponent can dodge it and then Viktor has to wait for it to come back up before even thinking of getting close to the minion wave again. This is a champion that was designed to camp by his SR turret in the laning phase if things go wrong, on a map where turrets are very close to minions. He's got good poking and trading power there, but Dominion lanes are large and any decent opponent is going to zone you way away from your minions. Death Ray is not something I'm going to be afraid of and you need to get close to use your Q.

You keep thinking these bot laners with no AoE abilities don't take Garrison, but at least these champions can hold their own besides early pushing. If you don't have Garrison on Viktor or Xerath, I'm going to dive the hell out of you once I force you to use your W or Q. Maybe there is a way to make Viktor work, but we haven't found it yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Bumrushing Viktor is plausible very early but can the same not be said for so many of the champions you have in Tiers 2-3? Morgana can't do much but snare you and run away. Galio even has to put up with having a melee autoattack. Swain is both an average duelist and very weak pusher until he gets his ult. There are many more but my point is made, you have a lot of champions in the middle of the pack that aren't especially strong, many of whom may even be quite weak at the start of the game, but they get to the point reasonably quick where they clear efficiently and stalemate most matchups. Viktor's no world-beater but he belongs with his peers, not at the dead bottom of the tier list.
You have not seen these champions played well if you're of the mind that they can't deal with rushing. They're in tiers 2-3 because they're solid counterpicks to gap closer melees, casters, and gap closers respectively. When played well they can even win the lane against the derpier of the tankyderps. Take a look at Eoniko or CaptnBuwberry for some examples of Morgana and Swain played extremely well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ssmonkey

Senior Member

05-29-2012

You really need to meet Eoniko's morgana. Full tank magic pen build, morgana won't be the one doign the running.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Infirc

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nny00000 View Post
While I agree Udyr isn't that good top and I'm not arguing for higher placement (I think he's tier-4 material but it's a semantics argument, plus I'm not high elo anyway which is what the list is based off of), there isn't a more fun champion to carry with. There's nothing like just being able to run strait at people, shrug off any damage they deal with shield+tank items, and then stun and kill them almost instantly from huge burst+sustained damage.

I also haven't touched him in awhile though for top because I also had way too many **** games where I got kited all day long. I especially hated playing him first windmill fight with 0 poking power what-so-ever.
His name is olaf,


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Balloon Sale

Member

05-29-2012

How are top players building Sona? I've heard she's supposed to be good, but I can't get the hang of her. I usually go for tanky auras and CDR (e.g. Mercs + Frozen Heart + Aegis + Zeke's), but I feel like I'm not contributing enough. My damage feels so low, especially later on. I've tried splashing in some AP (Sweeper and/or Unholy Grail), but without much success.

Another major concern is that I seem to be struggling in smaller skirmishes with her. I feel like I'm hurting my team's ability to move freely - if we don't or can't move around in a big blob all together, and I end up in a 2v2 or something, we usually lose. My teammate gets mauled and I end up trying to run away like a derp. What am I doing wrong?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sauron

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloon Sale View Post
How are top players building Sona? I've heard she's supposed to be good, but I can't get the hang of her. I usually go for tanky auras and CDR (e.g. Mercs + Frozen Heart + Aegis + Zeke's), but I feel like I'm not contributing enough. My damage feels so low, especially later on. I've tried splashing in some AP (Sweeper and/or Unholy Grail), but without much success.

Another major concern is that I seem to be struggling in smaller skirmishes with her. I feel like I'm hurting my team's ability to move freely - if we don't or can't move around in a big blob all together, and I end up in a 2v2 or something, we usually lose. My teammate gets mauled and I end up trying to run away like a derp. What am I doing wrong?
Top players are running her with Trinity and then all tank/aura items. The E power chord is really strong with it. Don't be afraid of running ArPen runes as well to maximize the autoattack and Trinity proc.

As you get Trinity and then tank items, you make a transition from sitting in the back like a support to being in the front to take most of the burst. Ult early whenever the opportunity is up. Sona is very good with bushwhacking to start team fights.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Regory

Senior Member

05-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
In high Elo both Lulu and Janna are built as pure tanks with flat MPen. The ratio nerfs to Lulu really didn't do anything to her in Dominion. The amount of CC and kiting she can do due to her cooldowns allow her to rack up her base damages quite a bit.
Even ignoring Lulu's abhorrent ratios, she still only has two damaging spells with merely average base damage and cooldowns. If you think she does the CC thing better than Janna, Wild Growth makes up for Tailwind etc., well that's your prerogative I guess. Let's not pretend the difference is in their relative damage output, since they're both terrible at dealing damage and that's not even their job anyway so who cares.

Quote:
Frequent? Go ahead and Q->W me - if its just the two of us, I'll even purposely let you do it. That way when the fear wears off you're not out of range of my gap closer and I can burst you down before your Q is back up again, kiting with you the whole way. Terrify is only the best single-target CC in the game when it is considered seperate from the rest of Fiddle's skills.
I don't see what the rest of his kit has to do with Terrify. A three-second disable is a three-second disable. Do you think Rammus is as good as he is purely for his mobility? If that was the case, Skarner and Miss Fortune would be a hell of a lot better than they are (which is not very). No, a three-second disable is kind of a big deal. Fiddlesticks can be quite strong just sitting back and protecting his team with massive CC, much like Janna or Lulu. His lack of mobility certainly does not put him on their level but I think he has real merit compared to some more "average" champions, like Nunu or Nautilus. And that's just bare minimum, since obviously there are some circumstances or enemy team comps where he can also be a legitimate threat on his own. Dark Wind is actually extremely strong poke too if you get most of the bounces, aside the fact it silences of course.

Quote:
If Viktor uses his W to stop someone from gap closing, the opponent can dodge it and then Viktor has to wait for it to come back up before even thinking of getting close to the minion wave again. This is a champion that was designed to camp by his SR turret in the laning phase if things go wrong, on a map where turrets are very close to minions. He's got good poking and trading power there, but Dominion lanes are large and any decent opponent is going to zone you way away from your minions. Death Ray is not something I'm going to be afraid of and you need to get close to use your Q.

You keep thinking these bot laners with no AoE abilities don't take Garrison, but at least these champions can hold their own besides early pushing. If you don't have Garrison on Viktor or Xerath, I'm going to dive the hell out of you once I force you to use your W or Q. Maybe there is a way to make Viktor work, but we haven't found it yet.
Viktor has the highest, uninterruptable damage per spell rotation in the game. If you're "not afraid" of that, then how can you be afraid of any other caster? :/ Death Ray on its own is pretty similar to the Resolute Smites and Barrel Rolls of the world and Gravity Field never has to be used pre-emptively, though it does have a rather long cooldown compared to something like Morgana's Q. Overall he seems pretty generic, and average, to me. He is certainly not worse than Evelynn, who has no range, no burst, and no pushing power.

I never said anything about bad bot laners not taking Garrison, I wish you'd stop putting words in my mouth. Garrison's cooldown isn't short enough to not get your **** pushed in if you're as inept as Sona or Kassadin at clearing minion waves though. The minions snowball, gotta blow Garrison... 90 seconds later, same thing except Garrison is still cooling down and you need help fast to avoid being neutralized. Viktor himself should probably use Garrison to augment his weak Levels 3-5 but he becomes self-sufficient quickly enough that you can't just out-push his Garrison cooldown later. His Level 6 damage is excellent and Death Ray should clear efficiently enough by Level 9 to allow him to auto-stalemate. Garrison can then be saved as a legitimate panic button, rather than being overly reliant on it to hold the lane at all.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Alairne

Member

05-30-2012

I'm slightly shocked to see Kennen so low on the lists. I know I'm in the lower ELO for Dominion, but building a slightly tanky Kennen has worked phenomenally for me in my past few games. If someone dares get close enough to try and take a point from me, it's quite easy to stun them all and usually pick up a couple kills while teammates come to clean up. Lightning Rush + Surge is quite effective for pushing minion waves as well. Shuriken is also effective for early pokes in either top or bottom.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sauron

Senior Member

05-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Even ignoring Lulu's abhorrent ratios, she still only has two damaging spells with merely average base damage and cooldowns. If you think she does the CC thing better than Janna, Wild Growth makes up for Tailwind etc., well that's your prerogative I guess. Let's not pretend the difference is in their relative damage output, since they're both terrible at dealing damage and that's not even their job anyway so who cares.
Watch some tournaments or featured matches. The tier lists are based on experience and not theorycrafting. Lulu wins over Janna and does a ton of damage for a pure tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
I don't see what the rest of his kit has to do with Terrify. A three-second disable is a three-second disable. Do you think Rammus is as good as he is purely for his mobility?
Affirming the consequent. Saying that implies I consider skills seperately from their kits. That's the point you're arguing, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
If that was the case, Skarner and Miss Fortune would be a hell of a lot better than they are (which is not very). No, a three-second disable is kind of a big deal. Fiddlesticks can be quite strong just sitting back and protecting his team with massive CC, much like Janna or Lulu. His lack of mobility certainly does not put him on their level but I think he has real merit compared to some more "average" champions, like Nunu or Nautilus. And that's just bare minimum, since obviously there are some circumstances or enemy team comps where he can also be a legitimate threat on his own. Dark Wind is actually extremely strong poke too if you get most of the bounces, aside the fact it silences of course.
"Some" circumstances, like, anyone with a hard CC or a gap closer. That's only almost all the champions picked regularly in Dominion. And Dark Wind makes no difference -- I'm diving you 1v1 whenever Terrify is on cooldown. Unless you went straight tank I'll kill you before you can fear me again. In team fights you're going to get bursted down unless you have Zhonya's, and if you do, we'll be focusing your allies instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Viktor has the highest, uninterruptable damage per spell rotation in the game. If you're "not afraid" of that, then how can you be afraid of any other caster? :/ Death Ray on its own is pretty similar to the Resolute Smites and Barrel Rolls of the world and Gravity Field never has to be used pre-emptively, though it does have a rather long cooldown compared to something like Morgana's Q. Overall he seems pretty generic, and average, to me. He is certainly not worse than Evelynn, who has no range, no burst, and no pushing power.
Uh sure, if he can get his skills off. If your opponent is retarded enough to stand in it. If you aren't getting zoned the hell out of the lane. If you aren't getting forced to use your W so you can even think to land one E without getting dived. You're also comparing to Resolute Smite, which has a powerful slow and is on a champion that is dangerous to dive, and Barrel Roll which is on a champion that can use it correctly at range and also has a cheap escape skill and upfront burst.

How much have you played / played against these champions? It really does sound like you're arguing purely from theorycraft, especially when you bring up damage per spell rotation or make comparisons to these champions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
I never said anything about bad bot laners not taking Garrison, I wish you'd stop putting words in my mouth. Garrison's cooldown isn't short enough to not get your **** pushed in if you're as inept as Sona or Kassadin at clearing minion waves though. The minions snowball, gotta blow Garrison... 90 seconds later, same thing except Garrison is still cooling down and you need help fast to avoid being neutralized. Viktor himself should probably use Garrison to augment his weak Levels 3-5 but he becomes self-sufficient quickly enough that you can't just out-push his Garrison cooldown later. His Level 6 damage is excellent and Death Ray should clear efficiently enough by Level 9 to allow him to auto-stalemate. Garrison can then be saved as a legitimate panic button, rather than being overly reliant on it to hold the lane at all.
You're certainly acting like they cannot take Garrison. It lets you get to level 6 before any minion wave could neutralize your tower except when against super pushers like Udyr. That keeps most of the "bad" bot laners in play until they get their 1v1 ult. As for putting words in someone's mouth, look at your own posts.

But seriously, how much have you actually played / played against these champions? I'm trying not to sound condescending here but your arguments are telling me you're not actually experienced with these champions.