One Tier List to rule them all

First Riot Post
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Regory

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panwar View Post
Abilities that clear minion waves are not in short supply. And there are many more that are on shorter CD and cost less resources. Viktor is hampered by high cooldowns, being mana hungry, and weak itemzation. He's an SR champ through and through. All about the prolonged laning phase and teamfight. He just doesn't have enough of what he's got to be good enough often enough for Dom. And that's not counting the fact that he he has a high learning curve.
While I don't dispute this, the ability to clear waves is not present in most of the champions in Sauron's Tier 4-Tier 5, which is a big part of what makes them especially poor bot laners. The only exception, besides Viktor himself, is Xerath and he's at the top of T4 instead of chillin' with Evelynn. Like most casters with strong AoE, Viktor can AoE farm and stalemate most anyone. He's not a strong pick by any means but his capability should be respected. Someone like Trundle or Fiddlesticks just get overrun when 4-5 minion waves pile up and neutralize their point.


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Jjaja

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Tier 5:
Karthus, Soraka, Yorick, Cho'Gath, Mordekaiser, Udyr.
This guy.


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Sauron

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
I don't understand what makes Lulu stronger than Janna. Both serve in basically the same role but I rather believe Janna is the one that does it better: probably superior CC (AoE knockup > all), better ratios and her passive is in the running for best ability in the game [mode]. Is Wild Growth that much better than Monsoon? Is Pix granting vision of a target when used as a nuke that big a deal? Maybe it's just me, I feel Janna's advantages outweigh Lulu's, though it's kinda splitting hairs anyway because they're both among the best.
Lulu has the tools for every situation, and her range is very long without being too predictable. Janna gets to zoom and interrupt people, but Lulu is doing the same thing but with obscene damage for having 0 AP. Also, Lulu ult screws up Darius ult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
On that note, Cass vs. Karthus. They're also very similar, yet most people seem to consider Cass cream of the crop amongst a relatively weak field (AP champs on Dom) where Karthus is complete trash. Actually, scratch that because the nerf on his passive was pretty devastating. -_- I still think his global gives him a leg-up as a bot laner specifically, though.
Cass can handle going top because of her damage output and range, while Karthus is stuck bot (but at least isn't too far behind). Cass gets to burst anyone who tries to close distance with her while Karthus just has to trust in his horrendously buggy wall to save himself. Also, that nerf to Death Defied was awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
Fiddlesticks is horribly underrated. The fact alone he's arguably the best CC bot in the game should earn him better than "seventh worst" top. :/ I don't suspect him better than the likes of Janna or Blitz, as they have incredible mobility to go along with their consistent CC, but I think he compares favorably to some of the upper-T3 utility champs. (e.g. Nunu lacks damage and Maokai also lacks mobility, so they all have similar major flaws, but Fiddlesticks brings much better CC to the table than either.) He's a particularly good "counterpick" to enemy setups low on hard CC, as Drain has gives him both incredible DPS and sustain if he's not constantly interrupted, and Crowstorm is basically Absolute Zero++.
No, I've seen a lot of people try to make Fiddlesticks work in both top and bot lane. People with map awareness will know when to expect a Fiddle ult, save their CC for when he uses Drain, time it at the same time as his Dark Wind to ensure getaways, and know to spread out. I destroy Fiddles in bot lane even with supposed subpar matchups because I do weird things like build MR and EC. Counterplay hits Fiddle much harder than anyone else at this level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
You know, I kinda wonder how Eve is bot lane because of her passive... It's like the only time her passive might not actually be the worst ability in the game, as Do-minions do rather pack a punch if you aggro them more than briefly. Sounds like a fun experiment for me to try. And Viktor really isn't all that bad. Death Ray is extremely effective at clearing minion waves of any size and the rest of his kit makes him a ***** to dive, so he should at least stalemate almost any matchup.
Eve bot lane doesn't work, and Viktor IS bad. Death Ray is not going to clear minion waves of any size unless you have a substantial AP investment. Any bot laner worth their salt is going to play extremely aggressively against Viktor to force out right at the start, not because Viktor scales well, but because that's simply the logical thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regory View Post
While I don't dispute this, the ability to clear waves is not present in most of the champions in Sauron's Tier 4-Tier 5, which is a big part of what makes them especially poor bot laners. The only exception, besides Viktor himself, is Xerath and he's at the top of T4 instead of chillin' with Evelynn. Like most casters with strong AoE, Viktor can AoE farm and stalemate most anyone. He's not a strong pick by any means but his capability should be respected. Someone like Trundle or Fiddlesticks just get overrun when 4-5 minion waves pile up and neutralize their point.
If you don't have zoning or pushing power, then you should be taking Garrison to get them through the early game. One of the reasons why the top laners are top is because they don't need this to maintain their point in bad matchups. Viktor is going to get rushed by anyone with a gap closer or CC because his base numbers are so low and his mana costs and CDs are so high. We've tried to make Viktor bot lane work before, and it simply fails due to his numbers.

Xerath is an interesting pick because people in other Elos have been saying that he's a counter to Yorick and other op champions because his range. I have shown this to be completely untrue in solo queue as well as tournaments. Xerath cannot even clear the caster minions without a good amount of AP and his W is going to go to waste. Anyone with gap closers or CC is just going to run up to Xerath, tank his stun, and stomp him. These champions are only scary if you let them play their game -- they are nothing against super aggressive play in open fields. Viktor and Xerath both rely on the whole turret hugging game from SR where you simply move back 2 inches if the opponent tries to do anything remotely aggressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjaja View Post
This guy.
I challenge you to take your Udyr top next tournament.

COME MEET YOUR DESTINY!


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Infirc

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Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Lulu has the tools for every situation, and her range is very long without being too predictable. Janna gets to zoom and interrupt people, but Lulu is doing the same thing but with obscene damage for having 0 AP. Also, Lulu ult screws up Darius ult.



Cass can handle going top because of her damage output and range, while Karthus is stuck bot (but at least isn't too far behind). Cass gets to burst anyone who tries to close distance with her while Karthus just has to trust in his horrendously buggy wall to save himself. Also, that nerf to Death Defied was awful.



No, I've seen a lot of people try to make Fiddlesticks work in both top and bot lane. People with map awareness will know when to expect a Fiddle ult, save their CC for when he uses Drain, time it at the same time as his Dark Wind to ensure getaways, and know to spread out. I destroy Fiddles in bot lane even with supposed subpar matchups because I do weird things like build MR and EC. Counterplay hits Fiddle much harder than anyone else at this level.



Eve bot lane doesn't work, and Viktor IS bad. Death Ray is not going to clear minion waves of any size unless you have a substantial AP investment. Any bot laner worth their salt is going to play extremely aggressively against Viktor to force out right at the start, not because Viktor scales well, but because that's simply the logical thing to do.



If you don't have zoning or pushing power, then you should be taking Garrison to get them through the early game. One of the reasons why the top laners are top is because they don't need this to maintain their point in bad matchups. Viktor is going to get rushed by anyone with a gap closer or CC because his base numbers are so low and his mana costs and CDs are so high. We've tried to make Viktor bot lane work before, and it simply fails due to his numbers.

Xerath is an interesting pick because people in other Elos have been saying that he's a counter to Yorick and other op champions because his range. I have shown this to be completely untrue in solo queue as well as tournaments. Xerath cannot even clear the caster minions without a good amount of AP and his W is going to go to waste. Anyone with gap closers or CC is just going to run up to Xerath, tank his stun, and stomp him. These champions are only scary if you let them play their game -- they are nothing against super aggressive play in open fields. Viktor and Xerath both rely on the whole turret hugging game from SR where you simply move back 2 inches if the opponent tries to do anything remotely aggressive.



I challenge you to take your Udyr top next tournament.

COME MEET YOUR DESTINY!
I think i have a replay where a friend taking udyr top gets a Quadrakill on the first windmill fight and "snowballs" out of control, i'll post it when i find it.

Ps: is Gliterlance seriously that damaging? i've always felt that maxing it first or even second is an actual waste compared with what you get with Help, Pix and Whimsy Ranks.


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
I think i have a replay where a friend taking udyr top gets a Quadrakill on the first windmill fight and "snowballs" out of control, i'll post it when i find it.
I fail to see what is so impressive about getting killing blows on an AD melee in the top lane team fight. That, the extra money you get compared to everyone else is rather inconsequential.


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WaterD103

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Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
I challenge you to take your Udyr top next tournament.

COME MEET YOUR DESTINY!
I now feel all this tier list is an elaborate plan for sauron not have to face Jaja udyr bottom again next tourney.


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Aparkhurst

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Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Vladimir, Maokai, Sion, Cassiopeia,
To quote the great JJaja "This guy."


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Sauron

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aparkhurst View Post
To quote the great JJaja "This guy."
I love it when you take Cass top!


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Aparkhurst

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Senior Member

05-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
I love it when you take Cass top!
In solo queue maybe.... Cassio top does well in an organized team


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Regory

Senior Member

05-29-2012

Cass is fine top, treat her like an AD carry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Lulu has the tools for every situation, and her range is very long without being too predictable. Janna gets to zoom and interrupt people, but Lulu is doing the same thing but with obscene damage for having 0 AP. Also, Lulu ult screws up Darius ult.
Lulu has 540 base + 1.1 scaling on her two damage spells. You can add up your own numbers compared to whichever other casters you want but suffice to say, her damage is quite low. I don't know where people get the idea that she does high damage. She only has two damaging spells with average base damage, typical cooldowns and, after being hit with the nerfbat twice, terrible ratios. Compared to Janna, the break-even point for damage is a mere 222 AP (no-charge Gale) on their respective two-spell combos.

You don't really pick either champion for their raw damage anyway, which is very poor for both. Lulu's major trump card is Wild Growth makes Monsoon look like doodoo. :[ But I still think Janna more than makes it up with better CC (AoE hard CC + targetted slow > AoE slow + targetted hard CC), better shield ratio and her amazing passive. Either way, you only have two champions separating them, so I'm arguing pretty minute differences I suppose.

Quote:
No, I've seen a lot of people try to make Fiddlesticks work in both top and bot lane. People with map awareness will know when to expect a Fiddle ult, save their CC for when he uses Drain, time it at the same time as his Dark Wind to ensure getaways, and know to spread out. I destroy Fiddles in bot lane even with supposed subpar matchups because I do weird things like build MR and EC. Counterplay hits Fiddle much harder than anyone else at this level.
Fiddlesticks is obviously a terrible bot laner just as he's a terrible laner in SR. He can't clear minion waves if his life depended on it. I was strictly speaking as a top laner. He probably shouldn't be picked into teams that have a lot of ways to interrupt his Drain but with the best single-target CC in the game and a pseudo-AoE silence on top, he can never be too useless, no? Compared to someone like Maokai, whose utility is a bunch of relatively crappy soft CC, he's not so bad at all. Dark Wind even gives Fiddlesticks similar poking power, and of course he absolutely demands frequent hard CC or Drain will kill your babies. Maokai is just a pain in the ass to dive.

Quote:
Eve bot lane doesn't work, and Viktor IS bad. Death Ray is not going to clear minion waves of any size unless you have a substantial AP investment. Any bot laner worth their salt is going to play extremely aggressively against Viktor to force out right at the start, not because Viktor scales well, but because that's simply the logical thing to do.

If you don't have zoning or pushing power, then you should be taking Garrison to get them through the early game. One of the reasons why the top laners are top is because they don't need this to maintain their point in bad matchups. Viktor is going to get rushed by anyone with a gap closer or CC because his base numbers are so low and his mana costs and CDs are so high. We've tried to make Viktor bot lane work before, and it simply fails due to his numbers.
With its augment, Death Ray is similar in power to many other spells which instantly wipe minion waves by midgame (Gragas Q, Veigar W, etc.) and costs no more mana. I'm not going to defend him as a top choice by any means but it perfectly fits your description of Tier 3 champions: he can at least hold the fort pretty well. And with the possible exception of Xerath, one uniting trait of all your other T4-T5 champions is that they have little to no real AoE capability, making them very susceptible to steady pushing and getting neutralized when 4-5 waves of minions attack the point all at once. Viktor won't allow that.

Bumrushing Viktor is plausible very early but can the same not be said for so many of the champions you have in Tiers 2-3? Morgana can't do much but snare you and run away. Galio even has to put up with having a melee autoattack. Swain is both an average duelist and very weak pusher until he gets his ult. There are many more but my point is made, you have a lot of champions in the middle of the pack that aren't especially strong, many of whom may even be quite weak at the start of the game, but they get to the point reasonably quick where they clear efficiently and stalemate most matchups. Viktor's no world-beater but he belongs with his peers, not at the dead bottom of the tier list.