One Tier List to rule them all

First Riot Post
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Sauron

Senior Member

05-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronicleX View Post
Trust me I know, I have surprised alot of people with what lanes I can beat as Morde. However he still looses to anything he cant hit back which is alot of champions in dominion. While morde is a nice counterpick due to the utility his ghost can potentially provide that doesn't mean he himself is better than other champions, he is highly situational and should be treated as a dedicated counterpick. Thats why I feel his placement is too high, situational champions should be midtier at most.
I don't feel the same way. If Morde has a troublesome matchup then he can just play defensively on his turret. He can deal with the pile of minions that happens after he gets zoned out, and he can do it without Garrison which helps him survive dives by taking Exhaust instead. The only champion I would consider moving above him is Kayle for her ranged harass and wave clearing, but I've beaten quite a few Kayles with Morde by waiting out that earlygame disadvantage.

But, I didn't bring the "pick him against carries" thing up because carry ghosts are so strong. I brought it up because most carries have to build offense to do damage, and only one or two mpen items will have you doing true damage to them whenever they go to trade. I laugh when I go against a Graves or an Ezreal as Morde because I know that a simple Warden's will let me totally zone them out. Its the champions with LOTS of range that truly counter Morde, like Cait/Kog/Cass/Karthus.

Against most midrange champions he will be able to trade pretty well with E and by Q'ing onto nearby minions, and his item builds are also fairly efficient goldwise which exemplifies his expected midgame strength. Then there's also the way his Q scales into the lategame: this ability is often very overlooked, underrated, and sometimes not understood. Morde can end up soloing Jax in long games because of it, which can singlehandedly win a close match for his team.

I've played him a lot and I feel Morde deserves his position as the front of tier 2. He has counters, but with smarter play they're not as numerous as I originally thought. He has a weak earlygame but can focus quickly on mpen and one defense type to get the ball rolling. Overall, his strengths outshine these weaknesses by a long shot.

So yeah, that's my reasoning on him.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

05-27-2012

I know all of the above but it is a moot point. My reasoning for his lowering is there are so many champions morde is utterly worthless against that are popular bot picks, and you can't send morde top. Unless you are the last pick in draft mode and you know exactly what the other teams bot is, Morde is just not viable.

Flat Mpen doesn't cut it on morde vs most opponents, second they see you going for flat pen they'll start their hexdrinker. Alot of people will run +18 mr level 1 vs you aswell, meaning upwards of 48 base mr for you to pen, with more as a very likely possibility.


As I mentioned earlier, he is a counterpick champion to very specific champions. Yes he can stall under the tower in the "sweet spot" and have minions never neutral it while being safe from his lane but other champions can do that while also applying pressure safely. I'll agree his counters are not as numerous as you'd expect them to be since he can beat things other champions cannot but there are many such as urgot and kogmaw that render his existence worthless. No other champ has this problem because in a worst case scenario they can go top instead while Mordekaiser cannot.


Because of how worthless Morde is top it should effect his positioning in both tiers. That's my reasoning, hes a one trick pony. Sure its a good trick but its the only one he knows. Magic Acts that have only one trick are not very good acts to follow.


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Glorious Bird

Senior Member

05-27-2012

Malphite, really?

I'm not disagreeing. Just curious.

Do explain.


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SHOE788

Senior Member

05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glorious Bird View Post
Malphite, really?

I'm not disagreeing. Just curious.

Do explain.
AD dominates dominion, malphite is an anti-ad tank.


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Sauron

Senior Member

05-27-2012

Saying Morde is useless top lane without giving any reasoning or saying he's not viable in blind pick / early draft is just wrong. Morde can swap top just fine, he just can't start the match up there -- much like Yorick or Udyr. Morde actually does very well when swapped top in the mid and late game. The only enemy that Morde is "utterly worthless" against is Urgot, and over half the roster has this same problem.

Kog'Maw countering him doesn't happen badly enough earlygame, and by the time it starts to happen Morde has picked up the pace item-wise. Kog only starts running over Morde in the lategame, which happens with Kog versus pretty much everyone. Cass, Cait and Karth outrange him a lot, but Morde is going to get at least some trades on them using speed shrine or brush.

Morde also has problems with Darius, Jax, and Lee Sin, but there's very few Dariuses and Lees that go bot. Jax bot was popularized by yours truly, but he certainly runs into a wall versus armor stacking and especially versus an early Tabi/Warden's. Regardless these champions are all going to beat Morde until he's had a chance to farm up a bit. Morde's scaling can win the day against all of these if he's played intelligently.

A Morde who buys flat MPen versus someone who has 48 MR coming out the gate is not a good Morde. Actually, that's not a good player, period. There's nothing wrong in banking your quints on flat MPen considering his ratios, or getting Haunting Guise (eventually resold) to give a glass carry some problems, but Void Staff has all the other MPen items beat against the average opponent.

A champion's placement in one list/lane doesn't effect the placement in the other. If it did, Malzahar's (and several others') positioning would be whack. That's why there's two lists and not one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glorious Bird View Post
Malphite, really?

I'm not disagreeing. Just curious.

Do explain.
Malphite's AS slow combined with FH and/or Warden's basically shuts out the popular tankyderp champions like Jarvan, Jax, Wukong and Yorick. He continues to be useful against AD casters like Pantheon, Talon and to a lesser extent Darius. His Q lets him kite or chase for a long time, and his ult is very good in team fights.

Malphite is simply a rock solid pick and a great choice for a tank on the team.


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Imwetoddid

Senior Member

05-27-2012

Any chances on a summoner spell tier list while you're at it?


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

05-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Saying Morde is useless top lane without giving any reasoning or saying he's not viable in blind pick / early draft is just wrong. Morde can swap top just fine, he just can't start the match up there -- much like Yorick or Udyr. Morde actually does very well when swapped top in the mid and late game. The only enemy that Morde is "utterly worthless" against is Urgot, and over half the roster has this same problem.

Kog'Maw countering him doesn't happen badly enough earlygame, and by the time it starts to happen Morde has picked up the pace item-wise. Kog only starts running over Morde in the lategame, which happens with Kog versus pretty much everyone. Cass, Cait and Karth outrange him a lot, but Morde is going to get at least some trades on them using speed shrine or brush.

Morde also has problems with Darius, Jax, and Lee Sin, but there's very few Dariuses and Lees that go bot. Jax bot was popularized by yours truly, but he certainly runs into a wall versus armor stacking and especially versus an early Tabi/Warden's. Regardless these champions are all going to beat Morde until he's had a chance to farm up a bit. Morde's scaling can win the day against all of these if he's played intelligently.

A Morde who buys flat MPen versus someone who has 48 MR coming out the gate is not a good Morde. Actually, that's not a good player, period. There's nothing wrong in banking your quints on flat MPen considering his ratios, or getting Haunting Guise (eventually resold) to give a glass carry some problems, but Void Staff has all the other MPen items beat against the average opponent.

A champion's placement in one list/lane doesn't effect the placement in the other. If it did, Malzahar's (and several others') positioning would be whack. That's why there's two lists and not one..
Difference between Malzahar going top for whatever reason is he isn't worthless up there to begin with. Mordekaiser needs the bot lane for item purposes. Sure Morde can switch later on that is actually the ideal situation, farm up a void staff and have fun. And speaking of the Jax popularised by yourself, I did wonder why I got a ton of bot jax's vs me in the past month.

As for the whole not buying flat pen as your a bad morde, thats my point. Even if you do buy enough flat pen the second they notice they can counter it with 740 which they can turn into a QSS to counter you further. They can also get the highly popular Hexdrinker into Maw or Wit's End. Flat pen isn't worth it unless you are vs bad players, as the good ones will bait you into it and then just buy a negaton cloak.

As for your list of champions that give Morde problems, Jax and Lee Sin are not up there for bot lanes in my experience. I can beat both rather consistently without problems especially Jax. Can't really comment on Darius yet, not played one properly bot lane but I heard its not very pleasant.

Anyways - If you got any footage of yourself playing Mordekaiser I'd like to take a look at it so I can compare our styles. lolmatches turned out to be useless for research, all your games are either Jax or Kassadin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imwetoddid View Post
Any chances on a summoner spell tier list while you're at it?
That's easy

No Reason not to use this = Revive
T1 = Exhaust, Garrison
T2 = Heal, Ignite, Flash
T3 = Clairvoyance, Ghost
T4 = Surge, Promote
OMG WHY = Smite, Clarity.


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shane o noke

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Senior Member

05-27-2012

Ya i usually play morde bot, but when i go top i find i can usually blow all my stuff on a good target and get ghost. Its rougher early yes, but you can survive till you have a few ap items. I agree he is outclassed top I just can't believe he ended up as the last champ.


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naotasan

Senior Member

05-27-2012

LOL Tier 6 item list

100% agree

Also, soraka isn't tier 1 in bottom lane? Well I guess that makes sense for upper elo and such, but in lower elo she tears phonebooks in half.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

05-27-2012

Chronicle, Sauron, Jax bot had been a thing on eu-w for a while now. You should know Chronicle, with all the time Sylian (and daviddos too) spend talking about him

And Malzahar's tier placement is mostly AD Malzahar, it'd seem. AD Malzahar is pretty darn useless on top lane, where all the AoE insta-gib his voidlings.