Change Darius ult to deal physical damage.

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Mikê

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Senior Member

05-25-2012

I just think it's stupid they made the cooldown refresh when he kills with his ult. Easy pentas from this....


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d goldenglue

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Senior Member

05-25-2012

I like Darius and i think you did a good job


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Iceciro

Senior Member

05-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik View Post
I just think it's stupid they made the cooldown refresh when he kills with his ult. Easy pentas from this....
People put way too much emphasis on pentakills and not enough on his actual presence within a teamfight. I think people who build Darius are doing it wrong, as he excells at two things: initiation and terror. He can pull people into a fight and keep them there; and he can be a presence that keeps squishies at a relative distance.


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Sinbu

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Senior Member

05-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Hey all, I am unfortunately out of town for the next few days. I will try to monitor and respond while in the airport or at least when I get back. In the mean time, I encourage everyone to post thoughtfully. I am seeing a lot of misinformation in recent posts (e.g., several people saying Apprehend applies a bleed stack) and that really doesn't direct the conversation forward. There are a lot of good design points to continue chatting about though.
please dont go... this is really interesting to read


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

05-25-2012
9 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankokukai View Post
I'd really like some insight from you about what i wrote in my first post at the beggining of the thread, in the very first page (the one with around 60ish upvotes, about his passive and massive harrass being the problem and not the ulti), if that isnt too much to ask
Sure. His harass is "massive" if he Q tips you almost every time. Otherwise, he is a weaker gangplank when it comes to harassment. We balanced this around a few factors.

First, counterplay -- For example, if you engage on Darius with a move block, you can often deny him the window to Q from the proper distance. If you juke backwards, you can sometimes bait a complete miss on the ability.
Second, sustain -- Champions with the ability to regain health will naturally wear Darius down, provided they execute their spell combos proficiently;
Third, pushing -- Darius has relatively little control over his lane. If he Q harasses, he often ends up pushing the wave to the enemy tower. Pushing isn't an inherent weakness, a lack of control over whether you push while harassing definitely is a weakness (Renekton has this problem as well). This is especially pronounced because Darius is vulnerable to ganks and because his bleed damage triggers tower aggro, making him a bad tower diver.

I see the bleed not so much as an additional source of damage as deferred ability/AA damage. If he didn't have the bleed, we would have just bumped the ratios on his other damaging abilities. Riven is similar in this regard. Both of them have extra AD scaling on their autoattacks in order to incentivze a balance between ability and AA usage.


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JoeJin

Senior Member

05-25-2012

little off topic but... how did you get the name certainlyt, is there a special story around it?

Edit: not how, but more of why.


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gosuprime

Senior Member

05-25-2012

saying darius has no sustain as a weakness is ridiculous. what does a vamp scepter, wriggles, or bloodthirster do? 450 gold and you get your lane sustain. even dorans give a bit.

by saying he is a weaker GP, now I know you are trolling. if GP uses his parrley on cd, he will go OOM almost right away. and the difference in DOT damage is massive.

no matter what you say, an ultimate you cant build against is broken. if a riven is fed you can counter her with some armor. true damage has no counter.


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Risemix

Senior Member

05-25-2012

How about this for a weakness:

put anyone with a slow on the other team and he instantly falls apart in any team fight scenario. If you think this guy is anything but BAD you are not playing the game correctly. Have your mage build rylai's and smack him a few times and watch as he can't get in and can't get out and just DIES immediately.

Period


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9Point

Senior Member

05-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Certainlyt View Post
Sure. His harass is "massive" if he Q tips you almost every time. Otherwise, he is a weaker gangplank when it comes to harassment. We balanced this around a few factors.

First, counterplay -- For example, if you engage on Darius with a move block, you can often deny him the window to Q from the proper distance. If you juke backwards, you can sometimes bait a complete miss on the ability.
Second, sustain -- Champions with the ability to regain health will naturally wear Darius down, provided they execute their spell combos proficiently;
Third, pushing -- Darius has relatively little control over his lane. If he Q harasses, he often ends up pushing the wave to the enemy tower. Pushing isn't an inherent weakness, a lack of control over whether you push while harassing definitely is a weakness (Renekton has this problem as well). This is especially pronounced because Darius is vulnerable to ganks and because his bleed damage triggers tower aggro, making him a bad tower diver.

I see the bleed not so much as an additional source of damage as deferred ability/AA damage. If he didn't have the bleed, we would have just bumped the ratios on his other damaging abilities. Riven is similar in this regard. Both of them have extra AD scaling on their autoattacks in order to incentivze a balance between ability and AA usage.
how do you counter play and zone him if he inherently in doing his own skills easily pushes the lane.
Sounds like even in zonning he has a great way to farm and harass.

Just to reiterate...
If someone has an ability to easily farm, then zonning is not an inherent flaw.
Its like saying just zone old Sivir. Just because she has a bouncing auto attack and can easily farm when pushed back to her tower doesn't mean she cant be zonned.

And to resort to "2v1" is his weakness is not an excuse.
Your entire argument bases of player ability to undermine the champions own overwhelming strengths. Which is funny, as you have already confirmed his abused Ad ratios and base defensive stats. (Which have nothing to do with survivability i guess)

And you fail to mention Riven does have a deferred AA/Skill Darius doesn't not.
Last i checked Riven's passive has no effect on any of her skills.
Darius has double dipping Ad stats.
every 1 point of AD is worth 1.4 Ad. that is not deferred. that increasing gains.

I don't even get how you can even compare CC stuns as stopping him.
What Pantheons 600 range 1 second stun would upset the balance of...?
the fact that you designed a champion who steamrolls not just in itemization, and skills, but also simple auto attacks. You do understand with how you designed his passive to work with his auto attacks.
At lvl 1 with base attack dmg 50 after five attacks he is applying a dota of greater dmg then his auto attacks (that being 60)

THAT IS HIS PROBLEM
you cant win exchanged with him because every auto attack he does has increasing gains on his damage.

One last edit.
his weakness is again, staying out of his range yet you say his harass his massive with a skill that isnt even his highest ranged move.
odd.


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Vriska Serket

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Senior Member

05-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Point View Post
how do you counter play and zone him if he inherently in doing his own skills easily pushes the lane.
Sounds like even in zonning he has a great way to farm and harass.
I imagine an ashe top would wreck him so hard or any other charecter with range on him or a hard cc.
Also its not that he is just a good pusher but that he HAS to push, his lane is ALWAYS pushed that makes him a prime jungle target.