Riot, please show some respect to the Teemo community

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Yfrappefort

Senior Member

04-23-2012

I am a very patient and respectful summoner. However, even my patience has its limits. I was very disapointed by the Hecarim patch, where the last Teemo buffs occurred. There are two things I want to denounce in this post :

1. The "over hype" and false promises for some QoL buffs to Teemo in the Hecarim patch.

In the Hecarim gameplay change preview, Morello clearly said that Teemo was going to get an improvement to his Move Quick AND his ultimate in addition to the bug fix on his poison. However, we only got a buff to Move Quick and two bug fixs. The CD bug on mushroom is not to be called a buff, because it was just a bug fix, not a buff. I believe the words were not chosen correctly here.

Overall, I think that Riot created way too much hype for such minor buffs. He only received so little that many Teemo players felt trolled. Teemo is still doing sub-par damage, and unlike Morello said, his damage did not go up “significantly”, it was overall a minor dps increase. Move Quick is still bad, and I can’t believe all they did was partially reverse the nerf they gave to it in the Brand patch (over one year ago) without giving it anything else. I mean, seriously, just compare it to ANY instant/very fast gap closer or move speed of any kind (CD, effects and duration) and it’s STILL the worst of them all :

A) First of all, the list of instant/very fast gap closer/reposition abilities that Teemo has to deal with and that makes him harder and harder to play. I am well aware that all champions have to deal with them, but it's even harder for Teemo, since he lose his bonus MS as soon as he get hit, and his base MS is very low :

1. Amumu > Bandage Toss : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 16/14/12/10/8

2. Blitzcrank > Rocket Grab : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 20/19/18/17/16

3. Caitlyn > 90 Caliber Net : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 18/16/14/12/10

4. Corki > Valkyrie : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 20/18/16/14/12

5. Ezreal > Arcane Shift : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 19/17/15/13/11

6. Fiora > Lunge : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 16/14/12/10/8

7. Fizz > Urchin Strike : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10/9/8/7/6
> Playful/Trickster : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 16/14/12/10/8

8. Gragas > Body Slam : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 7 at all ranks

9. Graves > Quick Draw : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 22/20/18/16/14

10. Irelia > Bladesurge : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 14/12/10/8/6

11. Jax > Leap Strike : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10/9/8/7/6

12. Kassadin > Rift Walk : Rank 1 to 3 CD : 7/6/5

13. Katarina > Shunpo : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10/9/8/7/6

14. Kennen > Lightning Rush : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10/9/8/7/6

15. Leblanc > Distortion : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 20/18/16/14/12

16. Lee Sin > Sonic Wave/Resonating Strike : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 11/10/9/8/7
> Safeguard : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 at all ranks

17. Leona > Zenith Blade : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 13/12/11/10/9

18. Maokai > Twisted Advance : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 13 at all ranks

19. Master Yi > Alpha Strike : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 18/16/14/12/10

20. Nautilus > Dredged Line : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 14/13/12/11/10

21. Nidalee > Pounce : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 3,5 at all ranks

22. Pantheon > Aegis of Zeonia : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 13/12/11/10/9

23. Poppy > Heroic Charge : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 12/11/10/9/8

24. Renekton > Slice and Dice : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 18/17/16/15/14

25. Riven > Broken Wings : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 13 at all ranks
> Valor : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10/9/8/7/6

26. Shaco > Deceive : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 11 at all ranks

27. Shen > Shadow Dash : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 at all ranks

28. Talon > Cutthroat : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 18/16/14/12/10

29. Tristana > Rocket Jump : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 22/20/18/16/14

30. Tryndamere > Spinning Slash : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 13/12/11/10/9

31. Vayne > Tumble : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 6/5/4/3/2

32. Wukong > Nimbus Strike : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 at all ranks

33. Xin Zhao > Audacious Charge : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 16/15/14/13/12

34. Ziggs > Satchel Charge : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 30/27/24/21/18

Note that almost all of these can be used way more frequently then Teemo Move Quick. Except Kassadin, ultimates were not listed here, because of high CD.

B) Now, the list of abilities that affect move speed (+ or -). Teemo’s “Move Quick” is in this category (note that this list only show the move speed buff/debuff and not additional effect/CC/damage of the given ability) :

First of all : Teemo > Move Quick : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 17 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : Passive +10/14/18/22/26 % move speed until struck by a champion or turret. The bonus then comes back after 5 secs. Active : Double the passive move speed bonus, so +20/28/36/44/52 % move speed > Duration : 3 secs

Then let’s compare that with other abilities. The bolds/underlined means that they got better CD, effect (the active part), and/or duration then his Move Quick.

1. Ashe > Frost Shot : Rank 1 to 5 CD : None (toggle) > Effect from rank 1 to 5 :-15/20/25/30/35 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs (refreshed with each AA)

2. Blitzcrank > Overdrive : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 15 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +16/20/24/28/32 % move speed > Duration : 8 secs

3. Cassiopeia > Miasma : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 9 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -15/20/25/30/35 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs (+ continual exposure if applied)

4. Cho’Gath > Rupture : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 9 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -60 % move speed > Duration : 3 secs

5. Dr. Mundo > Infected Cleaver : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 4 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -40 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs

6. Gangplank > Raise Morale : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 25 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +3/4/5/6/7 % move speed (passive), +8/11/14/17/20 move speed (active) > Duration : 7 secs

7. Garen > Decisive Strike : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 12,11,10,9,8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +15/20/25/30/35 % move speed > Duration : 4 secs

8. Hecarim > Devastating Charge : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 24/22/20/18/16 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +75 % move speed > Duration : 3 secs

9. Irelia > Equilibrium Strike : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -60 % move speed > Duration : 1/1,25/1,50/1,75/2 secs

10. Janna > Zephyr : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 12/11/10/9/8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -24/30/36/42/48 % move speed > Duration : 4 secs

11. Karthus : Wall of Pain : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 18 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -40/50/60/70/80 % move speed > Duration : 5 secs

12. Kassadin > Force Pulse : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 6 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -30/35/40/45/50 % move speed > Duration : 3 secs

13. Kayle > Reckoning : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -35 % move speed > Duration : 4 secs

14. Kog’Maw > Void Ooze : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 12 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/28/36/44/52 % move speed > Duration : 4 secs

15. Lee Sin > Tempest/Cripple : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -30/37,5/45/52,5/60 % move speed > Duration : 4 secs

16. Lulu > a) Glitterlance : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 7 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -80 % move speed > Duration : 1/1,25/1,5/1,75/2 secs
b) Whimsy : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 18/16,5/15/13,5/12 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +35 % move speed > Duration : 5 secs

17. Lux > Lucent Singularity : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/24/28/32/36 % move speed > Duration : 5 secs

18. Malphite > Seismic Shard : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : steal 14/17/20/23/26 % move speed > Duration : 4 secs

19. Miss Fortune > Make it Rain : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 15 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 1 sec

20. Nasus > Wither : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 15/14/13/12/11 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -35 % move speed and getting to -47/59/71/83/95 % by the end of the duration > Duration : 5 secs

21. Nautius > Riptide : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -30/35/40/45/50 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs

22. Nunu > a) Ice Blast : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 6 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/30/40/50/60 % move speed > Duration : 4 secs
b) Blood Boil : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 15 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +11/12/13/14/15 % move speed > Duration : 15 secs

23. Olaf > Undertow : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -24/28/32/36/40 % move speed > Duration : 2,5 secs

24. Orianna > Command: Dissonance : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 9 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : + or – 20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs

25. Rammus > Powerball : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 3 secs

26. Rumble > Electro-Harpoon : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -15/20/25/30/35 % move speed and -30/40/50/60/70 % if hit by the second one > Duration : 3 secs for each harpoon

27. Sejuani > Permafrost : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 11 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -30/40/50/60/70 % move speed > Duration : 3 secs

28. Shaco > Two-Shiv Poison : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/22,5/35/27,5/30 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs (passive) and 3 secs (active)

29. Singed > Mega Adhesive : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 14 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -35/45/55/65/75 % move speed > Duration : as long as they stay in and +1 sec when leaving

30. Skarner > Crystal Slash : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 3,5 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs

31. Sona > Song of Celerity : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 7 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +4/8/12/16/20 bonus move speed (passive) and +6/8/10/12/14 % move speed (active) > Duration : 1,5 secs
Power Chord effect : -40 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs

32. Swain > Decrepify : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 8 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/23/26/29/32 % move speed > Duration : 3 secs

33. Talon > Rake : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 2 secs

34. Tristana > Rocket Jump : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 22/20/18/16/14 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -60% move speed > Duration : 2,5 secs

35. Trundle > a) Contaminate : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 15 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : +20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 8 secs (must stay in contaminated ground)
b) Pillar of Filth : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 23/20/17/14/11 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -25/30/35/40/45 % move speed > Duration : 6,5 secs (if they stay near the pillar for the whole duration and +1,25 sec after leaving it)

36. Tryndamere > Mocking Shout : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 14 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -30/37,5/45/52,5/60 % move speed (if back turned) > Duration : 4 secs

37. Twisted Fate > Pick a Card (red card) : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 5 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -30/35/40/45/50 % move speed > Duration : 2,5 secs

38. Twitch > Debilitating Poison : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 10 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -30 % move speed (+6% per poison stack, max of -66% move speed) > Duration : 2/2,6/3,2/3,8/4,4 secs

39. Vladimir > Sanguine Pool : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 26/23/20/17/14 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -40 % move speed > Duration : 1 sec

40. Xin Zhao > Audacious Charge : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 16/15/14/13/12 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 1,5 secs

41. Yorick > Omen of Pestilence : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 12 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/25/30/35/40 % move speed (then -10/12,5/15/17,5/20 % move speed while the ghoul live) > Duration : 1,5 secs

42. Ziggs > Explosive Minefield : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 16 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : -20/25/30/35/40 % move speed > Duration : 1,5 secs

43. Zilean > Time Warp : Rank 1 to 5 CD : 20 secs > Effect from rank 1 to 5 : + or – 55 % move speed > Duration : 2,5/3,25/4/4,75/5,5 secs

This list just show how bad Move Quick is. If you wanted to give Teemo some real QoL buffs, then you could have, for exemple, increased his AA range to like 550 or even 525, his base speed to like 335-340 (he IS the swift scout, yet even a fat guy like Gragas got more base MS then him) while reducing a bit his passive MS bonus from Move Quick, and give like a MR shred to his mushrooms so that you can’t step on multiple in a row with so little punishments.


2. Riot silence in the CFF regarding any Teemo posts (and other posts in that forum).

I can understand that Riot can’t reply to all threads. It would of course be impossible. But there are some threads that should have been replied and never have been. Most of these are in the Champion Feedback Forum. I made a huge post in there that never got any reply (well, it was created in GD, but got moved in CFF). There are no other Teemo posts that big and that reflect more accurately all of his problems, so there would be no fear of dual posting for you guys. Yet even after 1900+ upvotes, 285+ pages and over 148k views, Riot never commented in it.

I have tried many, many times to get their attention, via various posts. I tried many approaches, talking about the lack in Teemo overall kit and stats, or about his lack of a clear role. Nothing worked. And I am not the only one. Many summoners tried to show their discontent of Teemo and gave some ideas on how to improve him. Some did it with analysis, some with humour.

What do you think we feel when our posts are never replied to? We feel like they are ignored. Some of you, including Phreak, even acknowledged that you did not post there enough, but still that was only words. No actions have been taken. We feel cheated. We feel ignored. We are loosing faith. We feel like all the work we put in to help you improve one of our favorite champion is just flushed away and that we are wasting our time. It’s frustrating, for me, and for all of the Teemo community that actually play him seriously and have noticed many of his problems.

Teemo’s kit is filled with outdated/old mechanics, and none of his abilities synergize wich each other.

- His passive is very situational, and most of the time you will almost never use it in any given game, because the risks are not worth the payoff. A passive should be strong and useful at any stage of the game, not to be used only on rare occasion.

- His Q is the worst and the most outdated CC in the game (only 2 champions still have it). Any hard CC have blind as a side effect.

- His W, as showed above, is the worst escape/chasing out of all abilities in the game.

- His E is one of the only remaining passive-only ability in the game. It’s boring, it’s not fun, nor does it promote good gameplay and the damage is still sub-par.

- His R does not feel like an ultimate at all. You can’t use them in team fights, you have to facecheck everything to place them (a “scout” should be safer) and overall they are just a poor version of wards with little damage/slow. Both of his passive and ultimate are also hard countered by oracle.

On top of that, Teemo got the worst AA range in the game; He’s a squishy ranged AP based champion that rely on AA to do damage, but that also have :

- Terrible AA range
- No hard CC
- Poor burst
- Bad AP scaling (and can't benefit from spellvamp)
- No AS steroid (the passive does not count)
- No sustain
- No shield
- Worst escape/chasing ability
- No reposition skill
- Overall low damage and is extremely gear dependant

How can a champion have all that toxic mix and be balanced? It’s impossible. He has been like that for more than a year now. Name me another champion that got all these weaknesses mixed together. There is none. Furthermore, many champions can gear up just like Teemo (on-hit, his only “viable” build) and achieve way better results than him (Kog’Maw, Kayle and even a support like Lulu, just to name a few) and actually be way more useful in team fights.

Morello wanted to know what we tought of Teemo since his buffs, well that’s what I think. Teemo still got too many weaknesses for the amount of strengths he brings. This was my last stand with Teemo, and this is my last hope for Teemo to be looked at seriously in a near future. For me those last buffs felt like “There, we buffed Teemo a bit, so now stop the Teemo QQ”. You guys are doing an awesome job in general with champions balance, but are you really happy with the way Teemo is right now? I can't believe that. Not when I look at the kind of amazing and rich champions you are making rencently.

TL;DR Teemo need to be looked at seriously. Give him a clear role. Make him a more active champion with more active abilities that promote active gameplay, instead of a mostly passive champion with mostly passive abilities that promote passive gameplay for the player and the enemy team (it's not fun for either side). If he is that hard to balance with his current kit, then remake some of his abilities. Most of the community find him "anti-fun" and have a very hateful attitude with him anyway (all those "delete Teemo" quote). And to everyone who keep saying we want him to be good at everything, that's far from it. This is what we want :

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi ramfan View Post
We are not asking for Teemo to be good at everything. We are asking for Riot to choose one thing and make Teemo good at that thing instead of the jack-of-all-trades sucks-at-all-trades we have right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mi ramfan View Post
We're not asking for all around buffs. We are willing to accept nerfs to certain parts of him in exchange for buffs that give him a role where he is not a bottom of the barrel, last resort pick. I don't think most Teemo players even care what role they encourage, so long as he becomes a viable pick in SOME role.
He is never played in high ELO and tournaments (from all around the world) for a reason, because he is just outclassed by many other champions, bring almost nothing to a team (mushrooms do NOT make him a viable pick alone) and do not have any clear role. I really respect Riot as a company and I do hope Riot will comment on this. Show us that you really want to improve a legacy champion to a competitive state. Show us that you want to interact with constructive posts. Show us that you care about the Teemo community.


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dirtpoor

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Senior Member

04-23-2012

So much math and stuff that I just +1'd. This dude has to know what hes talking about.

One thing you do gotta take into consideration though is teemo movespeed is based on your itemized movespeed. Buying movespeed makes him crazy swift.


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Turtle Fetish

Senior Member

04-23-2012

7/10


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XElement

Senior Member

04-23-2012

Teemo is in a fine place.
He doesn't need a buff.

He is a great split lane pusher.
He is nice in teamfights, he is squishy but his damage is nice.
He gives you map awareness.
His Global Taunt is OP.


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Jayeto

Member

04-23-2012

*opens forum topic"

*looks at mass wall of text*

................ eff that!!

*gives a +1 and writes this comment*


profit...


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Kaylnaz

Senior Member

04-23-2012

*sigh* teemo is gonna be gamebreakingly OP if he gets any real buffs whatsover


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Vantwan

Senior Member

04-23-2012

Teemo may be underpowered as you say, but you can't deny the fact that he's one annoying mother****er to deal with at top lane.

Top that off with his annoying laugh (though not as annoying as Lux's and Lulu's) and I can see why Riot wants to keep him under the radar.


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illundreal

Senior Member

04-23-2012

bump. tons of good analysis. teemo currently has one of the worst ccs in the game and one of the worst movement abilities in the game.

He's strong in very situational circumstances such as solo top against an auto attack reliant melee champion (see tyrnd) but overall he's a weak champion.


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Geomexis

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Senior Member

04-23-2012

20 upvotes/downvotes in less than 10 minutes for the first 4 posts with 7 total responses in the entire thread? I smell a smurf storm made by the OP.


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XElement

Senior Member

04-23-2012

Quote:
- His passive is very situational, and most of the time you will almost never use it in any given game, because the risks are not worth the payoff. A passive should be strong and useful at any stage of the game, not to be used only on rare occasion.

- His Q is the worst and the most outdated CC in the game (only 2 champions still have it). Any hard CC have blind as a side effect.

- His W, as showed above, is the worst escape/chasing out of all abilities in the game.

- His E is one of the only remaining passive-only ability in the game. It’s boring, it’s not fun, nor does it promote good gameplay and the damage is still sub-par.

- His R does not feel like an ultimate at all. You can’t use them in team fights, you have to facecheck everything to place them (a “scout” should be safer) and overall they are just a poor version of wards with little damage/slow. Both of his passive and ultimate are also hard countered by oracle.
His passive can be used to gank, and hiding while being chased...so it can be a life saver. I have seen many use it to just hide. He ults, slows them uses his E to run away. hides in a bush and he will have at least 2 seconds since he just slowed his enemy and dashed away at a fast speed. So it isn't all that useless.

How in the world is his Q bad? A blind? 2.5 seconds of the AD carry being useless. How is that bad? Your team could easily burst down their AD carry. Plus if they relay on LS well, sucks for them.

His W is fine. Low mana cost, nice speed boost that actually lasts quite a bit. Also he has a passive side of it, if not hit he is fast. So he could easily trap an area start pushing, first sign of trouble just run away and be long gone.

E, idk, I don't see many players complaining about it. It allows Ap teemo to exist. It is a nice boost to his damage.


See...now this is why i really cant see why you have upvotes.
YOu are complaining about free wards. Teemo can give you great map awareness. His ult allows him to push lanes without being ganked. Plus, the slow is a life saver... you make it sound like the slow is small when it is not. The damage is fine, can kill enemies that run away.

Also, oracle barely counters it. *walk into bush* *mushroom blows up*


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