Why would you release a jungler...

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NessOnett

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by imweasel09 View Post
I know you say this as a joke, but it isn't necessarily a bad idea. People feel better about doing double damage than half damage even if its mathematically the same, its a psychological thing. Whether his half damage is justified is another matter.
You'd think this would be the case, but it's not. Take Xerath for example.

In Riot's internal testing for his reworked passive, it was going to give "bonus damage based on distance from target." But the feedback showed that people felt they were being punished for fighting at close quarters rather than being incentivized from fighting at range. Even though they are mathematically the same and worded in one way, people took it as the other.


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Sanadoz

Senior Member

04-18-2012

So you are alright with releasing a new champion that will only be used in normals? He brings NOTHING that another top tier jungler doesn't and they all do it better than him. His ganks are worse than Nocturne, and Udyr. He clears slower than Shyvana, Udyr, Lee, Nocturne, and Mundo. His CC is almost non existent yet his damage is mediocre. Shyv's CC is non existent but her damage is high. Do you see the difference?

Fun champion to mess around with but will not see any competitive use. Sort of like Sejuani except she actually provides CC that a good team can take advantage of.

Hecarim doesn't have any strengths compared to the junglers that see common use. He is mediocre at everything without any particular strong points. That is the problem. You lower his Q damage to keep him balanced around his ganks, but his ganks aren't even good compared to top tier gankers...Buff either his clear speed or his ganks because at the moment both of them are extremely underwhelming.


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Morello

Lead Designer

04-18-2012
3 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
As someone who actually tested his jungle on the PBE, the half damage is actually pretty darn crippling when you take into account creep scaling. His clear time is pretty steady until around the Lv9 mark, but after that he just tanks horribly.

Would it be unreasonable to ask for Rampage to have its damage reduction changed to 75% from 50%? I realize that 100% would be kinda broken - I play a lot of Jungle Riven, and you clear virtually every camp after one round of Broken Wings (read: higher base and similar ratio per swing), but the 50% keeps his initial clear time below optimal, and after he finishes maxing Rampage his clear speed suddenly falls through the floor.
Sure - I could see this if needed. Lemme keep an eye on it (I was at PAX when he was on PBE) and see where he falls.


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Menea6587

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
And have their primary (only)jungling skill do half damage to minions?

Like seriously Riot, are you that afraid of fastclearing junglers?

On this note why not make Phoenix Stance, Burning Agony, Crystal Slash, and Burnout do half minion damage as well?

It's already a pathetically low damage skill as it is. Why make it so it can't even jungle properly? It's a .3 scaling skill that gets no benefit from crit, and a base power of 25. Most AOE junglers get stronger hits than that per-second on DOTs.
Alright, FH + YGB + RO = 40 cdr.
He also has 500 MS
Now, he has 3k hp and atma's, so that's 45 + 30 + 45ad iirc.

120 * 0.6 = 72. 72 +190 = 262 raw physical damage on his q.

Assuming you have 120 armor so that your effective armor is 100, that's 131 real damage.

Now, he hits you continuously because you strayed from the group. Assuming the q buff applies before cdr, he is now hitting you for 131 physical damage every 1.2 seconds.

And he'll be hitting you for about 120 * AS real physical aa dps at 18.



So, basically, if you have 120 armor and about 2500 health, using his Q and aa alone, it will take roughly 10 seconds to kill you. Assuming he has slows and is tanky, it will take a lot longer for you to kill him than him to kill you. And that does not take into consideration his W and E btw.


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fCKzAr

Senior Member

04-18-2012

He's slow and as a result jungles at lower health than most and his W doesn't provide enough sustain to offset that. His ganking is decent but certainly not godlike as his E depends on good positioning.


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VIOLENTxSHINOBI

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Senior Member

04-18-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because we're not trying to make the fastest jungler with the best ganks. Pre-6 he's alright, and post-6 has godly ganks...you have to counterbalance it so Hecarim is not the only viable jungler.
What about Shyvana? She p much does all of that...


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NessOnett

Senior Member

04-18-2012

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think there's a lot to this perception. And maybe it's not fast -enough- to be good (that could be the case), but he's reasonably safe and has good ganks. I just think there's a difference between WE TOLD YOU HE'S THE WORST AT ALL THINGS OMG and "Hey, Hecarim's strengths don't make up for his clear speeds."
I don't recall saying that. Or even using allcaps. I merely said he was weak. Overall. The main portion of his passive is removed whenever he gets hit by even the weakest of slows. He has one damage skill on a damage character, and it does very little damage. His clear speed is bad. His damage is really low. His ganks are...okay(but again, hurt because he lacks the damage to support them).


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Hrin

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Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIOLENTxSHINOBI View Post
What about Shyvana? She p much does all of that...
Her only cc comes from the super tiny knockback in her ultimate.
That's where her balance revolves around.


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Templar2k7

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Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Sure - I could see this if needed. Lemme keep an eye on it (I was at PAX when he was on PBE) and see where he falls.
Could you make it so that the later ranks to more damage to minions. I.E. rank one its 50% rank 2 55% ect.


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Morello

Lead Designer

04-18-2012
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
I don't recall saying that. Or even using allcaps. I merely said he was weak. Overall. The main portion of his passive is removed whenever he gets hit by even the weakest of slows. He has one damage skill on a damage character, and it does very little damage. His clear speed is bad. His damage is really low. His ganks are...okay(but again, hurt because he lacks the damage to support them).
Not calling you specifically, sorry if it came off that way.