@Morello and Riot Why I think the Irelia nerf was unneeded (Wall of Text)

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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

04-17-2012

She doesn't do **** damage and she does bring slow/stun to a fight. Used right she does bring some utility to a fight and she brings the same utility Olaf does, a CC/Damage soaker. And she does that well. In some ways I'd argue better, but that's really dependent more on the situation. And that hard to peel aspect can keep an AD out of a team fight. Honestly, if you're forcing their AD Carry to have to run instead of doing damage, you have single handedly made the fight greatly in the favor of your team.

That's why Olaf and Irelia can be such strong picks as well as other bruisers. They can stick on an AD carry well. Irelia can do it probably the best of the bruisers tbh.

And Udyr has no gap closer or range ability. He and Olaf are kinda akin in a way in that once they are on, ya, they're a pain to get off, but if you can keep them from getting on you, they aren't a threat. Wukong has a gap closer too but it's slightly less range and he's far more susceptible to CC than Irelia. I can't comment on damage more than I can't recall their damage being vastly greater one way or another in a team fight.

WW brings a good AS Steroid for the team, no doubt that's good utility, but if the enemy team is smart/well coordinated (as they are in tournament teams) his ultimate is not all that useful in team fights. It's far more useful early -> mid game, not as useful late game. Other than that, WW is just a damage soak as his damage is not that great either.

Kennen, as I've said, is prolly the only one that I'd say is more of a problem than Irelia, but that's cause he's also a little too strong right now. I see them nerfing him in the future tbh. How they go about it or how he should be? I'm not so sure. But even so he can't really close the gap as well, if he uses his dash that's a lot of energy and it is good, but it can be hindered hard. If he's in the middle of your team, no doubt he's bringing a ton of utility, but he's fulfilling a different role to Irelia. I think comparing them is silly. Same with Vlad.

And what do you think should be done to Irelia then? Just reverting the nerfs and she's back to a too strong status always chosen. To pretend she was "perfectly fine" before the nerfs is shortsighted and foolish. As foolish as people saying it during every single previous nerf. People love a hero and they can't acknowledge when a hero is too strong at a point. Her scaling late game is far from "bad" and it's not like she isn't of use late game. Why do you keep thinking that her late game sucks, her early game sucks (even though you yourself have admitted her weakness is only pre-4 before the nerf which lasts a total of 5 minutes in the game), and her only strength is mid game and think even that isn't that strong? At least that's how you keep coming off.

She WAS a problem and her mid game is still a problem if she can get to it. Though I wouldn't say nerf her now cause getting to it is the problem. If they fix that, then I could see them nerfing her mid game a bit. Maybe buffing her late game in some way slightly, but I don't know without really trying out stuff myself.

You, like Wickd and Dnomes and others are heavily biased about Irelia cause you love her so. I like playing every champion, personally, but even those I prefer to play the most I can admit when there is a problem. Like WW, I do see them toning down WW eventually, but I don't think nerfing his Q would be the way. Changing his ult to a longer cooldown could be good as it is a bit ridiculous in how short it is, especially considering his standard build is CDR. Or when they did the first set of Ahri nerfs, those were fine (second set was stupid, just as stupid as this round of Irelia nerfs). But don't pretend Irelia wasn't problematic before this nerf and didn't need to be hit in some way. Hell, even Dnomes OP stated she did need to be hit, but they did it wrong.

And most good Olaf players get Q in lane (E is only situational depending on the match up). Q is safer (not taking damage to yourself helps a lot) and is ranged and just as good for damage as well as slowing to keep people in range or keeping them from catching you if you need to get away. Wouldn't really call his "insane true damage harass" as part of the laning phase.


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Ordo Irelius

Senior Member

04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodEmperorLetoII View Post
She doesn't do **** damage and she does bring slow/stun to a fight. Used right she does bring some utility to a fight and she brings the same utility Olaf does, a CC/Damage soaker. And she does that well. In some ways I'd argue better, but that's really dependent more on the situation. And that hard to peel aspect can keep an AD out of a team fight. Honestly, if you're forcing their AD Carry to have to run instead of doing damage, you have single handedly made the fight greatly in the favor of your team.

You, like Wickd and Dnomes and others are heavily biased about Irelia cause you love her so. I like playing every champion, personally, but even those I prefer to play the most I can admit when there is a problem.
It's pretty late here so I'm only going to comment a bit on this post.

Irelia's stun and slow are not that powerful in a team fight, as the slow is after all a soft-cc and the stun is conditional and most of the time risky to use. Not to mention, it is also on a 8 second cd, meaning you can use it what? 3-4 times at most during a team fight? And how many of those will be a stun? Also, Irelia cannot soak damage as well as many bruisers, because she have no direct damage mitigation. Those solo tops that are squishier than Irelia makes it up via damage/powerful aoe utility.

Regarding the bias thing. I am probably a bit biased to this issue about Irelia nerfs because I am an Irelia player after all, but that does not mean non-Irelia players will always be correct either. They usually don't have as much knowledge of the champion as a real Irelia player, and they also can be biased because they hate a certain champion or a certain mechanic of a champion.

PS: I do not think Irelia's late game suck. I just think it is very mediocre and most solo tops can outperform her in team fights.


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One Day Remains

Senior Member

04-17-2012

Irelia doesn't burst hard?

Mmmkay.

At level 18 Irelia has 112.7 AD. Let's round this up to 113 for the sake of simplicity.

Her Q scales with 1.0 of her TOTAL attack damage and has a base damage of 140. In other words, we could say that it has a base damage of about 250. For those of you paying attention, this means her point adn click gap closer USED to have 270 base damage

Her E does 280 damage with a .5 AP ratio.

Now let's just assume that there are no masteries or runes being used in this and she is ONLY getting damage from a Trinity Force.

This will put her Q at 280 and her E at 295. Let's also say that before you dived, you hit W and have true damage active. Because of this, when you Bladesurge you'll consume that Trinity proc. (Not that it wouldn't do that normally, but still)

Back to Irelias base damage. 113, which Trinity will make 170~

So Bladesurge is doing 250+30+170+75(true). That's 525 damage upfront, instantly.

Let's say we wait on another Trinity proc. We attack twice (one of them is directly after the blade surge anyways) then E.

75 75 143 143, E (295) 75 143+170

So without her ultimate, in a situation where you only need to get off 3 auto attacks (very reasonable) you do about 1650 damage. Of that, 300 is true and can't be reduced.

Factor in a little more AD from runes and masteries or items, a little more true damage, her ultimate... Irelia has a lot of damage in her kit.

The point to this is: If Riot wants to do anything with Irelia that doesn't involve just throwing damage at her ultimate (which they won't do, given its nerf history) then they have to start at her passive, gutting it and replacing it with something else entirely.

In her preview, she was quoted to "thrive when outnumbered" because she got an attack speed boost. Obviously the built in tenacity thing only came in later, when Riot was trying pretty **** hard to make a melee DPS that could thrive in the game at the time.

I think it's time for Riot to seriously consider dropping her passive and giving her something else.

Not sure why I wasted the effort on this, since people aren't going to agree.


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Erfolg

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Senior Member

04-17-2012

Bump


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Ralik098

Senior Member

04-17-2012

ANNNNNNNndddddd more nerfs in this patch with the "Bug fixes", plus the Wit's End and Atma's nerf. They still haven't managed to fix normal draft. If she isn't buffed and normal draft isn't fixed by next month, I'm leaving for Diablo 3.


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Grim Reaper

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Senior Member

04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by One Day Remains View Post
At level 18 Irelia has 112.7 AD. Let's round this up to 113 for the sake of simplicity.

Her Q scales with 1.0 of her TOTAL attack damage and has a base damage of 140. In other words, we could say that it has a base damage of about 250. For those of you paying attention, this means her point adn click gap closer USED to have 270 base damage

Her E does 280 damage with a .5 AP ratio.

Now let's just assume that there are no masteries or runes being used in this and she is ONLY getting damage from a Trinity Force.

This will put her Q at 280 and her E at 295. Let's also say that before you dived, you hit W and have true damage active. Because of this, when you Bladesurge you'll consume that Trinity proc. (Not that it wouldn't do that normally, but still)

Back to Irelias base damage. 113, which Trinity will make 170~

So Bladesurge is doing 250+30+170+75(true). That's 525 damage upfront, instantly.

Let's say we wait on another Trinity proc. We attack twice (one of them is directly after the blade surge anyways) then E.

75 75 143 143, E (295) 75 143+170

So without her ultimate, in a situation where you only need to get off 3 auto attacks (very reasonable) you do about 1650 damage. Of that, 300 is true and can't be reduced.

.
Your opponent has no armor/magic resist?


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Ralik098

Senior Member

04-17-2012

Bump since Morello is posting on the fourms.


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Morello

Lead Designer

04-17-2012
1 of 6 Riot Posts

Hey guys,

Long post, but great detail. Let's talk Irelia for a few moments;

As you said, Irelia makes too few compromises for too much gain, and that's the core issue, but your analysis is that the True Damage is the real culprit as opposed to the sustain.

I actually think you're right here. Non-scaling damage sources on Fighters is what lets them go ultra-tank and allow the damage we can see sometime, and this is a classic example (we'd discussed this a bit before her nerf as well).

I'll revisit this with the team. I do retain Irelia's kit needed nerfs, but I'd prefer to cause her to make some compromises, or remove needless power on her (in order to allow others to be more powerful).

Thanks (and to everyone who weighed in on this). I'll try to get an update on this in the next few weeks, and bump to remind!


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BFG 9000

Senior Member

04-17-2012

awwwwwwww yeah

guys we did it


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RightToArmBears

Senior Member

04-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Hey guys,

Long post, but great detail. Let's talk Irelia for a few moments;

As you said, Irelia makes too few compromises for too much gain, and that's the core issue, but your analysis is that the True Damage is the real culprit as opposed to the sustain.

I actually think you're right here. Non-scaling damage sources on Fighters is what lets them go ultra-tank and allow the damage we can see sometime, and this is a classic example (we'd discussed this a bit before her nerf as well).

I'll revisit this with the team. I do retain Irelia's kit needed nerfs, but I'd prefer to cause her to make some compromises, or remove needless power on her (in order to allow others to be more powerful).

Thanks (and to everyone who weighed in on this). I'll try to get an update on this in the next few weeks, and bump to remind!
How about just to up her scaling a bit so it actually feels good to build AD on her instead of going full tank+trinity? It would make her feel more assassin like I guess.