The one that was left behind - Xin Zhao

First Riot Post
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Michael Kane

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yfrappefort View Post
I still don't understand why Teemo is not in their top priority list. He is in a worst shape then Xin or Kat. Soon, it's gonna be a year that he's been nerfed (and he was not even that strong).
That is just not true


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Reaper

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Senior Member

03-15-2012

[x] Gap Closer
[x] Knockup
[x] Slow
[x] AS Steroid

I'm sorry, who else has a kit as OP as this maybe like 1 other champion, also arguably one of the strongest lvl 2 ganks in the game. I play jungle Xin in ranked 65% Winrate with 50+ games played. I for one, do not want to see him buffed. O god please no...that would be toxic.


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Michael Kane

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyens View Post
I'd rather him get set back to where he was at his release. So I can walk into 5 people, ult, and get a penta.
Hire this man!!!


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Morello

Lead Designer

03-15-2012
6 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constrictor View Post
Morello, I don't understand this line of reasoning. There are champions which have been released and/or improved since Xin which do what Xin does but better, and they have hardly been touched while Xin has had nearly every aspect of his kit harshly nerfed repeatedly.

Xin is pretty easy to counterplay compared to Lee Sin, Shen, and Irelia, three champions which see a ton of picks and bans across all ELO ranges. Let's compare them.


Crowd Control:

Shen: AOE damage dealing taunt that reduces damage taken
Irelia: High % slow or stun depending on relative HP to target
Lee Sin: High % move AND attack speed slow, long duration, AOE knock up/knock back
Xin: Low %, short duration slow + .5 second single target knock up if he gets 3 melee swings on his target

Xin bottom of the totem pole here.


Steriods:

Shen: Magic damage on attack, scales with HP and attack speed
Irelia: 75 true damage per swing on active, 26 hp per swing at all times (for perspective, vs a 100 armor target, 75 true damage is the equivalent of three BF swords and a long sword)
Lee Sin: 40% attack speed bonus after using any ability, 25% lifesteal, 25% spell vamp, 30 armor
Xin: 40% attack speed -> 80% attack speed and cooldown reduction while active

Xin again bottom of the totem pole.


Sustain:

Shen: HoT on hit for his vorpal blade, scales with HP, self shield, physical damage redux on taunt
Irelia: Passive lifesteal on hit, short cooldown AOE ult which also heals Irelia for % of dmg done
Lee Sin: self + other shield, lifesteal/spell vamp/armor active
Xin: minor heal applied every third hit

Xin again in last place (see a pattern?)


Escapes/mobility/defensive abilities:

Shen: Targetless dash/daunt, channeled teleport ultimate
Irelia: Enemy target blink, enemy target slow/stun, passive CC reduction
Lee Sin: Friendly target shield/blink, enemy target dmg/blink, enemy target aoe knock up/knock back
Xin: Enemy target blink + short duration/short aoe slow, short single target knock up if you manage to get 3 swings off

IMO Xin has the short stick again... It is somewhat of a toss up between Irelia and Xin, but I would give the edge to Irelia because she can use her CC defensively much easier (longer range, longer duration, larger effect, does not have to hit target repeatedly to use). Also Irelia reduces enemy CC as well.

So why are these champions allowed to be in the state they are in while Xin is destroyed and useless?

Honestly, I'd rather have the power champions taken down to normal levels rather than Xin buffed back to how he was, but if they are allowed to exist as-is, Xin should be buffed quite a bit to bring him to the same ballpark here.
Your comparison isn't accurate - you're comparing, in many cases, champions dedicated to the mechanic you're using as an example. IE: Of course Shen, as a Tank, has a stronger CC skill than Xin (which late game, that's even debatable). This is the exact problem with Xin - he does everything, and as soon as he does any of it well, he's crazy. And with these mechanics, if he's not crazy, he's weak.

As I said before, it's going to take some skill reworking to allow us to buff Xin into a place where he can be balanced, and not just pubstompy or overpowered. And given the choice between Xin being too good and removing the ability to play any other fighter, and having him not be competitively viable, the latter is better overall for the game until he can have his work done.

There's a lot to do, and we have to prioritize what we work on. Xin's on there, just not quite yet.


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GunbladeGod

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Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Your comparison isn't accurate - you're comparing, in many cases, champions dedicated to the mechanic you're using as an example. IE: Of course Shen, as a Tank, has a stronger CC skill than Xin (which late game, that's even debatable). This is the exact problem with Xin - he does everything, and as soon as he does any of it well, he's crazy. And with these mechanics, if he's not crazy, he's weak.

As I said before, it's going to take some skill reworking to allow us to buff Xin into a place where he can be balanced, and not just pubstompy or overpowered. And given the choice between Xin being too good and removing the ability to play any other fighter, and having him not be competitively viable, the latter is better overall for the game until he can have his work done.

There's a lot to do, and we have to prioritize what we work on. Xin's on there, just not quite yet.
Morello thanks for keeping it real. Im usually impressed with how you, Xyph, Ironstylus, and few others red respond to the community. We all know not all of us are easy to satisfy or will listen to the voice of reason. Keep up the good work and hope to still be playing this game years from now.


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Noric

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Your comparison isn't accurate - you're comparing, in many cases, champions dedicated to the mechanic you're using as an example. IE: Of course Shen, as a Tank, has a stronger CC skill than Xin (which late game, that's even debatable). This is the exact problem with Xin - he does everything, and as soon as he does any of it well, he's crazy. And with these mechanics, if he's not crazy, he's weak.

As I said before, it's going to take some skill reworking to allow us to buff Xin into a place where he can be balanced, and not just pubstompy or overpowered. And given the choice between Xin being too good and removing the ability to play any other fighter, and having him not be competitively viable, the latter is better overall for the game until he can have his work done.

There's a lot to do, and we have to prioritize what we work on. Xin's on there, just not quite yet.
I was about to post something along the lines... really good response.


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Constrictor

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Your comparison isn't accurate - you're comparing, in many cases, champions dedicated to the mechanic you're using as an example. IE: Of course Shen, as a Tank, has a stronger CC skill than Xin (which late game, that's even debatable). This is the exact problem with Xin - he does everything, and as soon as he does any of it well, he's crazy. And with these mechanics, if he's not crazy, he's weak.

As I said before, it's going to take some skill reworking to allow us to buff Xin into a place where he can be balanced, and not just pubstompy or overpowered. And given the choice between Xin being too good and removing the ability to play any other fighter, and having him not be competitively viable, the latter is better overall for the game until he can have his work done.

There's a lot to do, and we have to prioritize what we work on. Xin's on there, just not quite yet.

I respectfully disagree. Of the three champions listed, only Shen could be countered with your point, and I would counter that by saying the amount of damage and sustain Shen has in lane makes him competitive with (and superior to most) melee fighter top laners.

Although his ultimate role later on is that of a defensive/damaging/disrupting tank, he is an absolute beast during laning phase.

Irelia and Lee are certainly both in the same role as Xin. They operate as tanky dps/mobile melee assassins throughout the game, which is the same sort of role Xin fits.

They are also lightyears better than Xin in every way. If you don't agree with what I've written then ask yourself why Irelia/Lee are used so often amongst high ELO players in solo queue and tournament play alike while Xin is not?


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YukiandAma

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Senior Member

03-15-2012

Xin Zhao needs some love. =[ Just make him so he is decent enough to play again


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Iudex Umbra

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Greetings Morello. A proposition. Many have indicated their desire for the break on champ making for other projects. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to have a summer of reworks or getting another new map someday. Stuff like that.

Realistically, I realize the lunatic nature of the proposal, since I am aware of logistics (in the sense that I'm sure most players are fine with 2-3 week champs realeases and I'm sure you guys have plans well into the summer for content).

So, a question also: I've noticed your comments on Kayle, Xin, Eve, the "ilk of the reworks". I look forward to these guys becoming more viable, and dare I say, more fun (I use the three listed). How much of their flavor of character do you aim to keep intact with their rework / tweaks?

EDIT: Let me clarify. Kayle's kit feels like an avenging angel that helps the righteous (or allies). Xin resembles his lore through his ult, and is a "good" 1v1 fighter. Eve is the shadow that makes you disappear. With the probability of the kits being changed to a lesser or greater extent, how important is it that you keep the flavor of the previous champion?


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UncIe Ruckus

Senior Member

03-15-2012

Good to know Xin's on Riots radar for champions that need attention. He really needs it being one of the weakest picks in the game right now.