Xypherous; You're my last hope

First Riot Post
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Norak

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Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkRathalosH8R View Post
fixed that for you
Not even funny; not lying in the least. Jokes like that are made every day, try thinking of something original maybe people will laugh.


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Papa Chompo

Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norak View Post
If that was the case they'd add no AP ratio at all (see Vayne, Olaf, Garen). Sorry, but this is complete fallacy.
You named champions whose abilities scale off of something besides ap... lets look at all the wonderful ad champions that have an ap scaling ability... pantheon, graves, urgot, master yi, kog'maw, corki, twitch, mf, nasus... i think im seeing a pattern here. Sure its cool to have champions that can go both ways... theres a couple hybrid champions in the game and they are great... however its stupid to think that riot should cater to you wanting viability for a build on a champion that was designed for a completely different role. Tryndamere is a melee ad carry, he was designed as such and should be played as such expecting otherwise is just silly. This is a competitive game it doesnt need to be catered to people who just want to **** around.


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Norak

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Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korismon View Post
You named champions whose abilities scale off of something besides ap... lets look at all the wonderful ad champions that have an ap scaling ability... pantheon, graves, urgot, master yi, kog'maw, corki, twitch, mf, nasus... i think im seeing a pattern here. Sure its cool to have champions that can go both ways... theres a couple hybrid champions in the game and they are great... however its stupid to think that riot should cater to you wanting viability for a build on a champion that was designed for a completely different role. Tryndamere is a melee ad carry, he was designed as such and should be played as such expecting otherwise is just silly. This is a competitive game it doesnt need to be catered to people who just want to **** around.
You don't understand what I'm saying; you said that any time they don't want to give an AD ratio on an ability they put an AP one instead. This is not the case; if they didn't want as AP ratio; they just plain don't put one (why I mentioned Vayne, Olaf, Garen). They put AP ratios on champions who they want an AP ratio on; Trynd is one of these.


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EggAtix

Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkRathalosH8R View Post
fixed that for you
You know that AP Tryn could heal more than any other character in the entire game right? He literally had the best sustain in the game. Period. He could heal for near 1000 every few seconds if he was snowballing hard enough.


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EggAtix

Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korismon View Post
You named champions whose abilities scale off of something besides ap... lets look at all the wonderful ad champions that have an ap scaling ability... pantheon, graves, urgot, master yi, kog'maw, corki, twitch, mf, nasus... i think im seeing a pattern here. Sure its cool to have champions that can go both ways... theres a couple hybrid champions in the game and they are great... however its stupid to think that riot should cater to you wanting viability for a build on a champion that was designed for a completely different role. Tryndamere is a melee ad carry, he was designed as such and should be played as such expecting otherwise is just silly. This is a competitive game it doesnt need to be catered to people who just want to **** around.
You're stupid. I really don't want to dignify this with a response. The was not designed to be competetive. It was designed to be fun. And he isn't saying that they need to cater to every man's wishes, he's saying that they shouldn't actively prune build options from so many champions. Strong-arming champions into any role is a bad idea. It stifles creativity and fun.


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Norak

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Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EggAtix View Post
You know that AP Tryn could heal more than any other character in the entire game right? He literally had the best sustain in the game. Period. He could heal for near 1000 every few seconds if he was snowballing hard enough.
If Morello responds, we may find a day where we can once again heal kite troll entire teams.


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SFHFWill

Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norak View Post
If that was the case they'd add no AP ratio at all (see Vayne, Olaf, Garen). Sorry, but this is complete fallacy.
This is wrong.

Garen has 2 skills out of 4 that scale off AD.

Olaf has 1 skill that scales off AD, 1 scales off HP the other is a flat amount and his ulti is a utility skill that offers no scaling.

Vayne also has one skill that scales off AD, that's Condem. There is no champion in the game (that I can think of) that has all skills scale off AD. MF has 1 that scales off AD, 2 that scale off AP and her ulti scales off both.

Cait has two skills that scale off AD, Ashe has 1 and Corki has 1.

So no, his logic holds true. No AD carry champ or heavy AD hitter has 3 moves that scale off AD. It would simply be too much burst with all 3 skills used in addition to the high sustain that auto attacking does.

Sorry sir, your logic is fail.

As far as AP Tryn is concerned, it shouldn't be viable. It shouldn't be anything but a troll build. He's hitting people with a sword, what part of that requires magic? He's hitting people with a giant piece of steal that sounds like a piece of tin pipe smashing into a brick. A terribly annoying sound.

Every champ should work in a pre-designed way. This makes actually picking and counter-picking something that should be considered. Not a 'herp-derp' fest. AD Tryn top is countered by Malphite top. Simple as that. I know you go Tryn, we want to counter-pick Malphite to give us the edge. Knowing that your team should respond with a mid that can beat our mid, such as Veigar counter-pick to say Casseopia, so overall you won't lose all lanes based solely on picks.

If both were viable, how can you actually counter-pick?

That is the problem I see with 'All Paths' being viable. It completely shuts down counter-picking. AD Kennen is not viable and scales terribly late game. Good, that should be the trade off for basically making him incredibly hard to gank and amazing at CS early on as AD. So how do I counter pick? Pick an AD champ for bot lane that scales better late game or a support that can give good range for harassment. Janna or Sona come to mind, with Graves to equal out AoE damage that Kennen will dish out, hence I now counter-picked your AD champ.

Why would you want a game based around something that doesn't deal with counter-picking or strategy at all?


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SFHFWill

Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norak View Post
You don't understand what I'm saying; you said that any time they don't want to give an AD ratio on an ability they put an AP one instead. This is not the case; if they didn't want as AD ratio; they just plain don't put one (why I mentioned Vayne, Olaf, Garen). They put AP ratios on champions who they want an AP ratio on; Trynd is one of these.
They do this not because they want 'All Paths' viable, but certain items in the game might help them out.

Easy example, Hextech Gunblade on Tryn is very good. It provides a good activated burst that's range, helping you secure a kill under turret if they are able to out distance you. It's another slow movement option besides his W as well as giving him spellvamp from his E. Thusly allowing him to get a form of life steal from all sorces of damage.

The added benefit is that it also lets him get a bit more healing and hit a little harder with W.

That's why they put those in, in helps with certain items that are great on a champion. It's not because they want no scaling, it's because you can use such an item (maybe one hybrid) to really help your champion scale a bit better for the cost put into such an item.

The rest of Tryn's items should be AD oriented but that one item used helps to an insane degree, much more than people give it credit. It should not mean that AP Tryn should ever be viable.


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bahamutkaiser

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Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Basically, the crux of this issue is that AP Trynd was something you used to enjoy and is no longer viable. If extrapolated out, you'd also say you wish there were more weird off-builds for champions that were also good.

Overall, that makes plenty of sense and I wouldn't disagree.

I don't like removing stuff like this (as it does remove fun, in cases like this), but sometimes you have to in order to make a character overall more viable and still be fun. The changes to Tryndamere have clearly made him better in his classic AD role, and the cost was his AP role. Sometimes, we have to weigh costs-vs-benefits and understand the big picture, and sometimes a subset of players can feel the cost more heavily than others (AP Trynd, for example).

It doesn't mean we can't mess with it a little to get some of that feel back, but with Fury working the way it does, it'll never be what it used to. These are the tough kinds of decisions we have to make sometimes for the entire game, and while we'd obviously like to only make players more happy, very little is free in terms of improving the game overall.

I also do take slight offense to not thinking we care about the "common man." I mean, why else would we come on the forums at all? :P
well it ain't to address Evelynn neglect, its cute that you acknowledge a unique alternate build for Tryndamere but ignore a completely trashed champ that's a plague on anyone participating in a game with her.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

02-29-2012
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
if they didn't want as AD ratio; they just plain don't put one (why I mentioned Vayne, Olaf, Garen).
For those cases specifically, they don't have an AD ratio because they scale off something else.

Vayne/Garen scales with opponent health - and typically true damage doesn't scale because of how it interacts as a counter to armor/mr.

Yes - I realize those two statements contradicted each other on silver bolts.