Xypherous; You're my last hope

First Riot Post
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Norak

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Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberic View Post
He'd have to have around 15-17k gold earned every game to even come close to pulling that off.
Exactly, I swear the trolls don't even try anymore..


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DarkPercy

Senior Member

02-28-2012

bump


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Michael Kane

Senior Member

02-28-2012

Hey Norak, while ago I harrassed you with AD fiddle sticks joke... I looked through patch notes recently and remembered that I did myself try out Guinsoos rage blade on old trynd, and found that if I built actually a little tanky I would be impossible to kill. Just the idea of Full out AP struck me as absurd, but then I saw you actually did build some ad items (be it phantom dancers) I take back the insult.


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Norak

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Senior Member

02-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Kane View Post
Hey Norak, while ago I harrassed you with AD fiddle sticks joke... I looked through patch notes recently and remembered that I did myself try out Guinsoos rage blade on old trynd, and found that if I built actually a little tanky I would be impossible to kill. Just the idea of Full out AP struck me as absurd, but then I saw you actually did build some ad items (be it phantom dancers) I take back the insult.
You've earned a lot of my respect my stepping up and saying that you made a mistake, just in doing that you've proved that you're a better person than 80% of this community. Most other people would be stubborn.


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Michael Kane

Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norak View Post
You've earned a lot of my respect my stepping up and saying that you made a mistake, just in doing that you've proved that you're a better person than 80% of this community. Most other people would be stubborn.
Yeah I needed an explanation of how it worked, again as earlier stated I was imagining you buying just a full natural AP build and I new for a fact that couldn't work; but the fact you were getting some crit and moving from their to take advantage of his heal and ability to reduce the cool down on a considerable aoe nuke cleared up what sounded to be an impossibly bad idea


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Norak

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Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Kane View Post
Yeah I needed an explanation of how it worked, again as earlier stated I was imagining you buying just a full natural AP build and I new for a fact that couldn't work; but the fact you were getting some crit and moving from their to take advantage of his heal and ability to reduce the cool down on a considerable aoe nuke cleared up what sounded to be an impossibly bad idea
This made me understand why you made the first comment. You're not a sheep like most of the forums, you just plain thought about it and didn't see it's viability. What I hate is when people just *hear* something is bad or unviable, and therefore hate it unto eternity (i.e. old Eve). So kudos, keep it up.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-29-2012
1 of 3 Riot Posts

Basically, the crux of this issue is that AP Trynd was something you used to enjoy and is no longer viable. If extrapolated out, you'd also say you wish there were more weird off-builds for champions that were also good.

Overall, that makes plenty of sense and I wouldn't disagree.

I don't like removing stuff like this (as it does remove fun, in cases like this), but sometimes you have to in order to make a character overall more viable and still be fun. The changes to Tryndamere have clearly made him better in his classic AD role, and the cost was his AP role. Sometimes, we have to weigh costs-vs-benefits and understand the big picture, and sometimes a subset of players can feel the cost more heavily than others (AP Trynd, for example).

It doesn't mean we can't mess with it a little to get some of that feel back, but with Fury working the way it does, it'll never be what it used to. These are the tough kinds of decisions we have to make sometimes for the entire game, and while we'd obviously like to only make players more happy, very little is free in terms of improving the game overall.

I also do take slight offense to not thinking we care about the "common man." I mean, why else would we come on the forums at all? :P


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Norak

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Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Basically, the crux of this issue is that AP Trynd was something you used to enjoy and is no longer viable. If extrapolated out, you'd also say you wish there were more weird off-builds for champions that were also good.

Overall, that makes plenty of sense and I wouldn't disagree.

I don't like removing stuff like this (as it does remove fun, in cases like this), but sometimes you have to in order to make a character overall more viable and still be fun. The changes to Tryndamere have clearly made him better in his classic AD role, and the cost was his AP role. Sometimes, we have to weigh costs-vs-benefits and understand the big picture, and sometimes a subset of players can feel the cost more heavily than others (AP Trynd, for example).

It doesn't mean we can't mess with it a little to get some of that feel back, but with Fury working the way it does, it'll never be what it used to. These are the tough kinds of decisions we have to make sometimes for the entire game, and while we'd obviously like to only make players more happy, very little is free in terms of improving the game overall.

I also do take slight offense to not thinking we care about the "common man." I mean, why else would we come on the forums at all? :P
Thanks for the response Morello; but I have to disagree with your ideals. Saying that balancing one build "costs" another isn't balancing the champion as a whole. That would be like remaking Maokai in a way that nerfed Tank Jungle Maokai's ganks, that, in the same breath, destroyed the AP mid/top Maokai.

In my honest opinion, the necessary changes to make AP Trynd viable would not affect AD trynd nearly as much as many people anticipate. I would be glad to go over every aspect of AP Trynd with you to help you get an idea of just what made him viable, because from a designer's perspective you guys didn't seem to quite grasp the concept (no offense intended). Many Rioters (as you can see) believed that AP Trynd would, in fact, be buffed with these changes, as it was believed that Bloodlust healing was the conceptual core of AP Trynd. This is semi-correct (if that is even a word, and not an oxymoron), but he heavily relied on multiple instances of healing, as well as his spinning slash for damage. Which were both completely decimated with the remake.

As said earlier, I would gladly go over every aspect of AP trynd and try to come with an agreement for changes that could fix AP trynd, without pushing AD Trynd too far in either direction. This I sincerely believe. If you, or anyone from Riot, would spend the time to go through this with me it would be openly appreciated, not just by me, but by every player in League who had hopes that Riot would keep true on it's promise of customisation in League, despite the recent Trynd, Vayne, Olaf and Garen mishaps.

P.S. When I say common man I mean the person who isn't posting what you want to respond to, I mean the little guy who posts what may be a pain to respond to, but is seeking all the right answers. Synonyms of common: Regular, ordinary.

Thanks for your time,
Norak.

P.P.S. You said that AP Trynd was killed in the process of making AD Trynd viable, but AD Trynd isn't viable. His damage is less reliable now. Beforehand? Getting max stacks of Q, you knew your damage increased by exactly "x", and that your spins damage would increase by "x". Tryndamere's who played like you suggest (baiting with low hp and crit chance/crit damage runes) were the only ones that were unreliably unfun to play as and against, and you know what? This is more likely to happen now because fury gives crit chance.

There is no reliable stage in his damage. Max fury? You can either get lucky and crit, or get unlucky and deal mediocre damage. Low hp? You deal more damage, but you typically don't want to stay in a fight for long and you don't want to use spin.


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Donut Puncher

Senior Member

02-29-2012

imo comparing ad and ap trynd is a bit more out there than tank and ap maokai...

comparing ap maokai to ad maokai would be a more analogous comparison, imo.


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Norak

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Senior Member

02-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut Puncher View Post
imo comparing ad and ap trynd is a bit more out there than tank and ap maokai...

comparing ap maokai to ad maokai would be a more analogous comparison, imo.
AP Maokai is all about bursting and cc, the tanking/utility is the lesser component.
Tank Maokai all all about the tanking/utility and CC, where the bursting is the lesser component.

AD Trynd is all about constant DPS and surviving, with burst being the lesser component.
AP Trynd is all about burst and surviving, with constant DPS being the lesser component.

You also have to note that Maokai has no AD ratios or steroids, in comparison to Trynd who has both AD and AP ratios and steroids.