@Xypherous: I heard from Coronach that Yorick is getting reworked in the future?

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exe3

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Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
Playing as: Yorick's ghouls don't feel cool. in an effort to make him not feel like a SC Carrier (float around while ghouls do the work), we pushed them too far so the ghouls don't feel important. The middle ground is when you feel like you're fighting with your ghouls.

Playing against: Killing the ghouls does not offer sufficient reward/counter-play due to the point above.

For example, imagine if Omen of Famine's ghoul would start out small while summoned and each time it hit an enemy grew larger and larger. You could click E to consume the ghoul to heal based on how large it's grown at the cost of losing it's damage output. The CD of the spell is modified to trigger after the ghoul is consumed.

(For this thought experiment: Consider Yorick's passive changed from damage reduction per ghoul active to gaining a property of each ghoul that is active. In this example, Yorick has 10% lifesteal while the Ravenous Ghoul is active)

In my mind this presents better gameplay than what is currently on live because the opponent has the opportunity to:
  1. Remove the lifesteal effect from Yorick
  2. Reduce the damage output for a guaranteed amount of time
  3. Directly reduce the burst healing by killing the ghoul before it can grow to the maximum size.

Meanwhile, I think this is more fun for Yorick because:
  1. Your ghoul has more personality (through the visceral nature of it's size corresponding to heal potency).
  2. We could remove the 5 second lifetime of the ghouls which make them feel transitory and not worth your attention after casting.
  3. His passive creates more gameplay and decision making.

I really feel like we missed an opportunity at a much cooler character here. Xypherous' string of characters is cooling down soon, and my work on Co-Op finishing up (BuffMePlz will continue to kick ass on that feature), so I hope we can realize it.
YES PLEASE!

That sounds significantly better than what is currently on live. Minions would actually have a role with the whole 'fighting alongside you'. Staying around forever would also help a LOT with their feel but the AI work would need to be great it sounds (which imo is one of the weakest parts about them atm). Would be cool if you could have strats somehow like hiding ghouls with you in brush and telling them who to attack if possible.

Honestly, i'd buy him instantly if this ended up being the case as fighting alongside ghouls was what I wanted from him but it wasn't what I got when I tried him. My friend had much greater success than most yorrick's i've seen by going a Yi build and just ulti'ing himself when a fight started or downing a tower.

Speaking of which, since you're here (still, hopefully). How do you see his ultimate currently? It's pretty good for ulti'ing an AD carry but pretty dang useless on a mage or tank. Maybe if an ulti'd mage's autoattacks did damage based on their AP so that it doesn't feel like a waste ulti'ing them because you wanted to ulti them for the second life portion of the ulti.

One final thing, there seems to be a problem with some characters that get released that blatantly need at least some form of a remake. Yorrick and Viktor* for example. Also poor remakes ala Kayle. Is there anything being done to prevent this in the future?

*Don't get me wrong, I like Viktor but the hex core system atm has issues which has been acknowledged by Statikk as something to look into and fix.


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innervation

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post

For example, imagine if Omen of Famine's ghoul would start out small while summoned and each time it hit an enemy grew larger and larger. You could click E to consume the ghoul to heal based on how large it's grown at the cost of losing it's damage output. The CD of the spell is modified to trigger after the ghoul is consumed.

I really feel like we missed an opportunity at a much cooler character here. Xypherous' string of characters is cooling down soon, and my work on Co-Op finishing up (BuffMePlz will continue to kick ass on that feature), so I hope we can realize it.
exciting


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NessOnett

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
Playing as: Yorick's ghouls don't feel cool. in an effort to make him not feel like a SC Carrier (float around while ghouls do the work), we pushed them too far so the ghouls don't feel important. The middle ground is when you feel like you're fighting with your ghouls.
Coronach, I'm gonna be blunt and say I love Yorick. I love his kit, I love his skills, i love his playstyle, and I love his ghouls.

I feel like people at Riot have this problem. A lot of players do not fall in love with this game, they fall in love with the characters. And when you rework something because you want it to be appealing to a broader audience, you kinda put a knife in the back(pun intended) of people who already legitimately like the character as it is.

I mean, there are instances like with Jax. Where his core kits is so problematic that he's either balanced as completely faceroll or entirely useless. In these instances a rework is beneficial. But in my humble opinion, to completely rework a character because "they aren't popular enough" just seems like a pretty selfish act.

I realize that champion creation is a long and involved process. But the necromancy archetype is a very deep well to draw from. And I'd REALLY love to see you consider the possibility of a new necromancer to put these ideas into. And leave Yorick for the people who love playing him, because there's many who do.

I mean look at Yorick. He is a beast of a man beating people in the face with a shovel. He SHOULD be doing the damage. And his ghouls are his minions, they are little more than insects to this titan. And though you may say that they don't "feel" like they are doing anything, I can definitely tell when they are up or down because of the damage reduction and the extra damage they provide.

AI tweaks are fine. But making them grow, making them consumable. Those are the kinds of things that could be pushed to another character. A less beefy necromancer. One whos minions are the man he wishes he was. But he has been enfeebled in his old age. And thereby on top of summoning ghouls, he also cripples his enemies to be as feeble as he is. This would even be a role a support could play. We don't really have a dedicated debuffing support. Especially not one who could sac minions to heal allies. Just throwing it out there as a thought.

Only my opinion, but it would be a real shame to completely overhaul a character that's beloved by many(maybe not the majority, but still many), just in an effort to get his numbers up. There's a reason this game has so many champions, and not everyone should like them all. They should appeal to a core group though. And he has his appeal.


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Coronach

Game Designer

02-16-2012
4 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exe3 View Post
Speaking of which, since you're here (still, hopefully). How do you see his ultimate currently? It's pretty good for ulti'ing an AD carry but pretty dang useless on a mage or tank. Maybe if an ulti'd mage's autoattacks did damage based on their AP so that it doesn't feel like a waste ulti'ing them because you wanted to ulti them for the second life portion of the ulti.

One final thing, there seems to be a problem with some characters that get released that blatantly need at least some form of a remake. Yorrick and Viktor* for example. Also poor remakes ala Kayle. Is there anything being done to prevent this in the future?

*Don't get me wrong, I like Viktor but the hex core system atm has issues which has been acknowledged by Statikk as something to look into and fix.
I'm not sure yet on how the ultimate factors into things.

In regards to question about learning from our mistakes, we've talked a lot about what's happened during Yorick's development, and I can say that whatever teams I'm on will remember the lessons there. I don't think Viktor is a problem nor would our plans really qualify as a remake of him. We put out some new mechanics and may seize upon the opportunity to improve it. I think the issues on Kayle stem from a very large difference in vision for the character. I know I've been frustrated whenever I hear people refer to her as a support character simply because she has support abilities. I think if everyone gets on the same page for what she's supposed to be, we'll be able to drive her into success for that role.


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Rivercalm

Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
This concerns me; unless the ghouls were super powerful, wouldn't this make Yorick super weak? Alternatively, if you can gain actives by merely having a ghoul out (and it lasts until it dies with no decay), doesn't this just create incentive for Yorick to have his minions hold back away from enemies (when they're 'fed'/'stacked') and Yorick just takes advantage of all the passives with no risks as he could just have them stay outside of the fight.
But again, if the cost to summon another ghoul is insignificant, Yorick could always press the button to summon one. Why should enemy even try to kill the ghouls?
Unless riot decides to massively increase the CD/mana of Yorick's spells.


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BlueZucchini

Member

02-16-2012

All I want to add right now is: Don't take the current role away from Yorick, that he currently fields - the high sustain-bully.

I really like the idea of your changes, but think he should still be able to sustain and harass a lot of low-sustainers out of the lane. Else he will just get the 20th tanky/dps, that, as every tanky/dps without any decent gapclosingskill or hard CC, won't work out.

There must always be a reason to pick a champion, and Yorick currently is picked as a counter to a couple of popular solo-top or even mid-picks. If his role gets reduced to "looks cool and has the chance to deal some damage in case he ever catches an enemy in melee range" he will get as popular and useful as Olaf and Mundo within seconds, and all you would achieve is pissing off current Yorick players.


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Coronach

Game Designer

02-16-2012
5 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
Coronach, I'm gonna be blunt and say I love Yorick. I love his kit, I love his skills, i love his playstyle, and I love his ghouls.

I feel like people at Riot have this problem. A lot of players do not fall in love with this game, they fall in love with the characters. And when you rework something because you want it to be appealing to a broader audience, you kinda put a knife in the back(pun intended) of people who already legitimately like the character as it is.

I mean, there are instances like with Jax. Where his core kits is so problematic that he's either balanced as completely faceroll or entirely useless. In these instances a rework is beneficial. But in my humble opinion, to completely rework a character because "they aren't popular enough" just seems like a pretty selfish act.

I realize that champion creation is a long and involved process. But the necromancy archetype is a very deep well to draw from. And I'd REALLY love to see you consider the possibility of a new necromancer to put these ideas into. And leave Yorick for the people who love playing him, because there's many who do.

I mean look at Yorick. He is a beast of a man beating people in the face with a shovel. He SHOULD be doing the damage. And his ghouls are his minions, they are little more than insects to this titan. And though you may say that they don't "feel" like they are doing anything, I can definitely tell when they are up or down because of the damage reduction and the extra damage they provide.

AI tweaks are fine. But making them grow, making them consumable. Those are the kinds of things that could be pushed to another character. A less beefy necromancer. One whos minions are the man he wishes he was. But he has been enfeebled in his old age. And thereby on top of summoning ghouls, he also cripples his enemies to be as feeble as he is. This would even be a role a support could play. We don't really have a dedicated debuffing support. Especially not one who could sac minions to heal allies. Just throwing it out there as a thought.

Only my opinion, but it would be a real shame to completely overhaul a character that's beloved by many(maybe not the majority, but still many), just in an effort to get his numbers up. There's a reason this game has so many champions, and not everyone should like them all. They should appeal to a core group though. And he has his appeal.
I appreciate your point of view NessOnett. I definitely don't want him to feel like like a fragile necromancer casting pets. The vision that I'd like to realize is what if you combined Diablo 2 Necromancer pets on a Death Knight. Yorick should feel like a burly tanky DPS character. You should want to kill his pets, not just because of what the pets do, but what effect they're giving Yorick.

I can promise you that our desire to work on Yorick is not out of a desire to improve played numbers, drive skin sales, or anything on the business end. From a company perspective, it would be better for my time to be spent developing new characters than revisiting old ones. I really hope current Yorick players like the changes more than anyone - cleaner mechanics with more depth, choice, and strategy.


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Icker

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
The vision that I'd like to realize is what if you combined Diablo 2 Necromancer pets on a Death Knight. Yorick should feel like a burly tanky DPS character. You should want to kill his pets, not just because of what the pets do, but what effect they're giving Yorick.
As a former unholy dk, I fully approve of this. Good to know Yorick is being reanalyzed so well, and with such a cool outlook.

To ask a question: Was this your intent the first time around and the 'R and D' just wasn't keeping up with your vision?


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Audhulma

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
I appreciate your point of view NessOnett. I definitely don't want him to feel like like a fragile necromancer casting pets.

I can promise you that our desire to work on Yorick is not out of a desire to improve played numbers, drive skin sales, or anything on the business end. From a company perspective, it would be better for my time to be spent developing new characters than revisiting old ones. I really hope current Yorick players like the changes more than anyone - cleaner mechanics with more depth, choice, and strategy.
Not to derail the thread here, but what's the deal with the karma rework then? Is that one in the same boat as this yorick overhaul? Are you guys only trying to increase the number of people that play her or are you just trying to clean up her kit a little? It's absurdly irritating to even think that somebody is changing a champion just to get more people to like it when you know people already enjoy it.


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Dragonk

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coronach View Post
Playing as: Yorick's ghouls don't feel cool. in an effort to make him not feel like a SC Carrier (float around while ghouls do the work), we pushed them too far so the ghouls don't feel important. The middle ground is when you feel like you're fighting with your ghouls.

Playing against: Killing the ghouls does not offer sufficient reward/counter-play due to the point above.

For example, imagine if Omen of Famine's ghoul would start out small while summoned and each time it hit an enemy grew larger and larger. You could click E to consume the ghoul to heal based on how large it's grown at the cost of losing it's damage output. The CD of the spell is modified to trigger after the ghoul is consumed.

(For this thought experiment: Consider Yorick's passive changed from damage reduction per ghoul active to gaining a property of each ghoul that is active. In this example, Yorick has 10% lifesteal while the Ravenous Ghoul is active)

In my mind this presents better gameplay than what is currently on live because the opponent has the opportunity to:
  1. Remove the lifesteal effect from Yorick
  2. Reduce the damage output for a guaranteed amount of time
  3. Directly reduce the burst healing by killing the ghoul before it can grow to the maximum size.

Meanwhile, I think this is more fun for Yorick because:
  1. Your ghoul has more personality (through the visceral nature of it's size corresponding to heal potency).
  2. We could remove the 5 second lifetime of the ghouls which make them feel transitory and not worth your attention after casting.
  3. His passive creates more gameplay and decision making.

I really feel like we missed an opportunity at a much cooler character here. Xypherous' string of characters is cooling down soon, and my work on Co-Op finishing up (BuffMePlz will continue to kick ass on that feature), so I hope we can realize it.
Because this sounds both smart and interesting I doubt it will ever be implemented into the game. Everytime I see you guys post cool concepts like this, it is ultimately never heard of again. Then you start throwing around words like burden of knowledge and anti-fun (which usually makes no sense given the situation), and say 6-12 months later that the idea is scrapped and your working on other things.

Also your time is not better spent working on new champions, fix old ones. For example Sona, Skarner, Vladimir, Irelia, Fizz, Sion, etc are a mess and need to be reworked into champions that are far less broken at their core.