Morello what is your take on soraka bot lane.

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Ueber

Senior Member

02-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanaryuu View Post
the 0CS babysit role has been around since DoTa 1, is has been around for a long time, because its the best way to ensure your team can win,
It's not a bad way to play, people just don't like it when there the ones forced into the 0CS role.
being a support player, i don;t mind getting no CS, i enjoy having all my focus on harassing the enemy rather then killing minions.
That being said, I also play alot of AD carry, and most of my attention then turns to "Must last hit" which can get boring after a while, but the fact of the matter is, i need them items, my base scale is pathetically small, the gap between no complete items and complete items, is to big to pass up. when compared to the fact AP can pretty much burst you down with little more then 3 spells and next to no items, making you like.. "wut"
I completely agree that 0CS is pretty deeply ingrained right now. I also get that you want to get your AD carry farm so that they can peak late game. I also agree that I enjoy having my focus on harassing the enemy rather than last hit whack-a-mole, though I gravitate towards jungling rather than support.

There's just such a frustratingly small number of heroes that are presently viable in the 0CS support role right now. There are a ton of heroes that could be awesome babysitters if they were more viable late game having limited farm or if the position were more rewarding and allowed you to buy some cool items.


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Das Cavemann

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Junior Member

02-10-2012

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Originally Posted by Alamandaros View Post
I think the problem comes down to that if you harass her lane, she can heal it back up no problem; if you don't harass her lane, she can freely harass you back. It's lose-lose.

And then there's the armour buff...
There's plenty of ways to counterbalance that in game, be more aggressive early game. Get your support in the bush before soraka does, make your support harass either soraka/adcarry. Eventually she will go oom and doing this her ad carry will get a lot less CS. As well get your jungler to come in and get a quick kill while they're somewhat low health/mana and her heal was just used. There's plenty of ways to counter soraka just got to think out of the box. But, I do have to agree with you a little bit, as long as none of that ^^^^ happens. Soraka wins the lane.


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Searbreon

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Recruiter

02-10-2012

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Originally Posted by chumbler View Post
You don't fix a bad thing by adding more of that bad thing. When damage is dealt it needs to stick. if it doesn't stick and there is risk involved in doing it, there is no reason to do it. Janna does not need sustain added, and as I said and I'm sure most would agree, she is pretty much perfectly designed because Brackhar is one of the most talented people at Riot. Also Morello pretty much already answered you in his earlier posts which I was paraphrasing.
I was just proposing an idea that could help Janna out in the current meta. As it is i rarely see Janna's unless I'm playing her. I agree that Janna has an awesome skillset, but with that lack of sustain playing Janna is a gamble on the bot lane. What im proposing is not a straight up heal just a little boost to HP Regen that can be harrassed down.


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

02-10-2012
17 of 17 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alamandaros View Post
It's a bit unfair to Leona to consider her a support just because she's forced into the role in the current meta. She's the only tank in the game that is unable to jungle decently or solo lane. If anything she's hurt by it worse because she's a champion that needs gold, yet is forced into a 0cs role.

She has no ranged harass, no sustain, no ally buffs, and no way to safely retreat when she does go in; yet she's forced into the spot because she can't proc her own passive on creeps (horrible jungling). Sure she's good at securing kills when your jungler comes in to gank, but so are other supports like Janna. It's like if you took away Rammus' ability to jungle; he would forced into the support position bottom where he has no reliable way to harass or escape safely, and suddenly he's being gold starved instead of being able to get gold from jungling and ganking.
That's why I put "support" in quotes. She's used as that role presently. I think she functions pretty well without minion kills. She doesn't have extremely significant level-up incentives outside of her armor/mr buff, and she's definitely going to reach level 9. The beauty of such an armor/mr buff is that it doesn't scale with items that strongly, so she gets enough free durability to survive without items.

I'll give you that she can't jungle or solo that exceptionally, but she does have a really solid place in the game.


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Talith PA

Senior Member

02-10-2012

Yes, it's called Dominion.


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Qualjak

Senior Member

02-10-2012

Morello, by explaining your disdain for the supports in TF2, you are showing your negative bias towards supports in gaming. I hope you understand that no matter what you do, this will somehow affect the way you decide to change the game. In your third post you mentioned how "we like support characters". Looking at your diction choice in your previous posts, you always used "we" when explaining your approval of supports, and "I" when there is anything negatively mentioned about supports. In simple terms, every time you say "we" it's something you don't completely agree with, and every time you say "I" it's something you believe that the rest of your company might not. You might think this is irrelevant, but it is clear that the posts reflects your true opinion on supports. You don't like them, and you might even want them gone. Please, be careful about the way you change supports - or better - get someone else to work on that field of the game that has a less radical view on supports. Your biased opinion can have a large impact on the support class in the future, and in general your bias is spoken from a very small minority. And on the topic of TF2, I've never witnessed someone complain about the medics breaking the game, but then again - I don't play TF2 - I play LoL. TF2 is still prospering, but if the game were to be changed to how you wanted it (in the case of the medic) the prosperity is more debatable. This is actually quite related to the discussion of LoL because TF2 has different classes, is mainly a PC title, and is also free-to-play. You might want to use the history of that game for a little bit of insight into the future if you were to mess with supports.

Here's the quotes of yours that I was referring to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'm not as worried about heal amounts on either Sona or Soraka, but I am worried about tons of overlapping, deferred effects (Sona) or infinite mana healers (Soraka).
Shows your negative attitude toward specific supports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We're not going to rip healing out of the game
Shows your disagreement on not ripping out healing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - the lack of new stuff is totally valid, and we're fixing that. I can understand that argument and agree.
More plainly visible of you using "I" when you agree. This also shows your concern of whether or not the problem will be fixed.

By the way, your intuition was really communicating with you when you typed the following quote. You should probably listen to yourself here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Attention doesn't equate to personal preference, for or against. What we like actually doesn't matter, but instead, making the game better is our goal. We nerf and buff Vlad constantly and it's public that I don't care for him - our job is to make the game fun and balanced, not change stuff for us.
I created this post because of your explosion of disdain for support classes in games. I'm concerned for the future of the game when your bigotry can cause such a disturbance for supports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
TF2 is the -most- egregious example. At high-level play, the medic is the single most important thing in the game, and the entire strategy and gameflow revolves around it.

In pub play even, most medics wins unless there's a massive skill disparity.
-Qualjak

(Yes, I'm signing my username. It felt necessary for the length and formality of this post. Deal with it.)


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SorsScriba

Senior Member

02-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
That's why I put "support" in quotes. She's used as that role presently. I think she functions pretty well without minion kills. She doesn't have extremely significant level-up incentives outside of her armor/mr buff, and she's definitely going to reach level 9. The beauty of such an armor/mr buff is that it doesn't scale with items that strongly, so she gets enough free durability to survive without items.

I'll give you that she can't jungle or solo that exceptionally, but she does have a really solid place in the game.
Could we at least get an even buff on defenses as Rammus then? Rammus: 150, Leona: 70 (both are 6 seconds if Leona hits with hers with the same CD). Rammus' passive scales off his steroid and the steroid scales off his passive's want of armor, Leona's does not. Rammus has 4 seconds of continuous cc, Leona, on the best of conditions, has 3 that is staggered.

I'm not sure what is needed to prove that Leona needs a little bit of love. I can give you almost any "pure" tank and show how she is lacking in some way to each.


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AboutTenPandas

Senior Member

02-10-2012

@Morello/Phreak

Leona can be played bottom lane. But that's only because we want to play her and have no other place for her.

I really hope that your goal is to nerf the top class supports like Soraka and Sona in order to actually give some type of incentive to play support leona or support maokai or support shen, etc...

Right now, whenever I fall into the support roll, I sigh pretty loudly. Because I have a decision to make. I could either pick a "good" support and heal, cc, and protect my carry, or I could play a "fun" support and either get a couple of kills bottom lane or fail miserably.

It seems like if you really want to win the game, the choice is obvious. Everyone is going to pick the traditional support. I'd really like to see something done about this.


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Minutehourday

Senior Member

02-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
That's why I put "support" in quotes. She's used as that role presently. I think she functions pretty well without minion kills. She doesn't have extremely significant level-up incentives outside of her armor/mr buff, and she's definitely going to reach level 9. The beauty of such an armor/mr buff is that it doesn't scale with items that strongly, so she gets enough free durability to survive without items.

I'll give you that she can't jungle or solo that exceptionally, but she does have a really solid place in the game.
But her level of disruption - her main role in a teamfight - scales significantly with cooldown reduction. Which can be expensive.

She would be *so* fun as a jungler, and would still be a support jungler a la maokai, unable to carry games herself. Sejauni/Rammus/Maokai/Skarner have a ton of cc/disruption/ganking power, like her, but are able to jungle. The passive proc change people are suggesting/clamoring for - half damage to minions/monsters only - would, imo, put her in the "viable" jungler category. I still think Rammus/Mao would be stronger; skarner would still do more damage and have a better hard initiate. Honestly, tweak the passive numbers a little bit if you need to; she is way more fun with items. I can play Janna with no items and have a good time. I can play Ali with no items and be fine; his ulti makes it pointless to focus him. But leona, even with her w, has to be in the middle of the fight, and honestly is squishy until she gets something like a randuins or a frozen heart or at least an aegis/some hit point items.

I thought Phreak wanted everyone to jungle! .


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Alamandaros

Senior Member

02-10-2012

Like Pandas said, the only reason she's even seeing use right now is because Leona/Iron Solari have such a huge fanbase. This problem stems from her only being viable in one position in a team; a position that technically anyone can fill, which is why she's being tossed there.

It's extremely hard to come up with reasons to pick Leona over someone like Rammus, even though Leona is supposed to be the embodiment of a tank. Rammus can jungle relatively fast (not shoved into the support role) and his tank steroid is better. It's possible to argue that Leona could have better disruption in a team fight, but as it is now you need 5k gold in items [as a support who's going to be expected to be warding] for the CDR.