Riot, I'm not in favour of the direction League of Legends is heading!

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Arcane Azmadi

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Hey - thanks for taking time to write out a detailed post. Let me respond to how we plan to address the power creep problem (you refer to this as stability, but the examples you reference point to power creep as the source of your concerns).

First - and most importantly - is how we're creating champions this year. Part of the problem was us not focusing enough on creating interesting and distinct weaknesses on new champions. This is part of what can accelerate how much power ramps up...when new characters are more equalized experiences, they can become tougher to balance against classic champions

Next, the Live Team is going to be taking on some of this after their focus on fixing long-time coming weak champions. This will likely ruffle some feathers, but will help the overall total game. Because this has become more out-of-line than we'd like, we'll need to take efforts to get the game in an overall more healthy state.

The rate of champions has been manageable, but I agree we need to shore up the difference a bit more. This year has a lot of initiatives I'm personally excited about on this front, especially in the new champion awesomeness and game health improvements.
While I appreciate this post, Morello, can you give us any kind of assurance that you actually intend to STAND by this? Without meaning to sound rude, the vast majority of claims and promises Riot have made over the past couple of years have turned out to be, not to put too fine a point on it, bullsh!t. I'm afraid you've squandered your reservoirs of good faith with a lot of us, myself included, with fiascos like champion IP pricing, Project Shiny and Magma Chmaber disappearing into the aether, the stealth rework apparently being lost down the back of the couch, the utterly RUBBISH Kayle rework etc etc. Can you promise us that you won't immediately go back to releasing bland, generic, painfully UP or blatantly OP champions as soon as you run out of original ideas, just to maintain your "1 champ every 2 weeks" mandate? Because I'd prefer not to have a new champ at all than any more lame ones. The game is OVERFLOWING. Can you promise us that, Morello?


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Malgana

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by umadredsbro View Post
===============================I WANT YOUR OPINION ON THIS.=============================

It was great when they pumped out champions when they only had 30 or so. That's fine - I loved that. More champions = more fun right?

I think there's a flaw to that.

The more champions Riot pumps out, the harder it will eventually get to balance the game in terms of champion strengths, as sooner or later, with the amount of champions that are currently in the game and are coming out of the idea factory, there will be massive problems, such as champions having few counters, or too many counters. At the moment, respectively Sivir and Evelynn.

Just as an EXAMPLE, in my opinion. The REAL ISSUE at hand is the fact that too many champions makes it hard to stabilize a 'norm' of power for champions. REMEMBER THAT as you read my interpretation upon the current status of Sivir and Evelynn.

Sivir is on the stronger side after her remake because of her spellshield and absurd speed. This translates to incredible kiting and chasing power, as well as map travelling overall. Her spellshield will nullify any spell in the game, most importantly spells that counter her absurd speed. There's nothing to counter a spellshield when it is up, so that is, in my opinion, what is making her incredibly strong. Also her boomerang blade, when combined with her speed, is really hard to dodge. (She can outposition you in moments, and any attempts at stopping her positioning is spellblocked).
You may point nocturne out, however he doesn't have incredible speed to kite or chase with, he must be in melee range for the majority of his damage which means that he will be hit by
- more cc, more than his spellshield can handle
- more damage overall, since he must be in the middle of everything to be useful
This doesn't make him useless, but how often do you see a nocturne in ranked? For other reasons that revolve around the balancing of many champions at once, many other top laners or junglers perform better than him.

Evelynn is on the weaker side due to the viability of vision wards and oracles elixir. That, and coupled with the fact that her skillset doesn't do what it should, being heavily stunted in terms of damage and utility. It's very easy to defeat her as she was balanced around the fact that being in stealth and having a stun was very hard to beat as by the time you saw them with oracles or wards you were stunned and they had unstealthed anyway. Now that we have more champions with more utility to counter even stealth in general, she is becoming outclassed.
Evelynn was released in Beta, I think, and at the time she was fine. This is because champions are being designed for balance around their release. Once again, with Riot pumping out many, many champions, this design mindset is redundant, as very soon there will be more champions that affect that previous champion's viability.
The obvious fix to this is to balance champions after their release. With so many champions, however, Riot will need many more staff members or leave some out.

As you all should somewhat understand, they have decided on the latter, whether it was forced or not (whatever reason they don't want more staff members, not really the point).

I'm not saying they should be getting more staff members, but that they should stop the root of the problem.


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Please, Riot, SLOW DOWN on the champion releases and take time to MAKE PREVIOUS CHAMPIONS ALL AS VIABLE AS ANY OTHER CHAMPION IN THE GAME. When have you ever heard someone say "There are not enough champions!" or "We want more champions!" or "LoL has a small range of champions!"

No seriously, have you ever heard that in the past 12 months?


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When I say this, I don't mean stop champion releases. I never meant that. At the start of this post I mentioned that the more champions, the more fun. The flaw is the lack of stability when you bite off more than you can chew.

If money is what you are after, I can garentee you that if you made sure that every champion in your game had their own respective area of which they could work with while being on the Fields of Justice, more money will come to you than if you were to pump out champions. People pay not to get the new champions, but to play what is viable, fun or strong. When people buy your pumped out champions, they expect it to be viable, fun or strong because the champions are balanced within the current available champions in the game. I reiterate - champions are, for the most part, strong when they are released. There are exceptions, but by right, you shouldn't be releasing champions if they are blatantly underpowered. You design them to fit in, so people trust that.

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Currently, the banning system in ranked (which is not what the majority of the League community plays, mind you) is focused upon banning the champions that are borderline overpowered or a major issue to deal with. (Tryndamere, as a recent example. EXAMPLE.) This should not be how banning works. The fact that every single ranked game shares a similarity in the form of almost the exact same bans in nearly every elo, such as Morgana, Kennen, Lee sin, Rammus, Singed, Kassadin, Tryndamere, Shaco(not really anymore), and several others proves that people ban based upon a champion's current stand in the invisible tier list set by Riot themselves, probably unintentionally as they wouldn't want something like that.

Also, not to say that more maps are bad, either, but my theory that more champions makes things hard to balance applies very much so to maps. With this many champions, I'm not counting, (its probably on the wiki) there is bound to be a select few champions who will be undoubtedly overpowered on different maps. I'd like to be open here, as this is actually a very, very hard problem and if things go on, probably the bigger problem soon, if Riot is going where I think its going. Maps like Twisted Treeline and Dominion have an entirely different invisible tier list. Just having a tier list works against the game, as the point is to have every champion on the same level, separated by skill, experience and teamwork.

I know you, Riot, want it as much as I do, as much as what I presume much of the community wants. You WANT a balanced game, you WANT a fun game. But let's face it - At the moment, League of Legends is not the fun, balanced utopia of a game anyone dreamed of.

edit: Here's a point that is not one I forgot but one I thought of, it actually adds on to the whole "completely equalize your champions first" thing.

BECAUSE you have released all these champions and people have developed somewhat of a identity and bond for ALL of them, even Evelynn and other 'unused' champions, the more champions you release, inevitably, the bigger of a hole you will end up digging yourself in when the realization finally dawns that half the champions you have made are now outclassed and as you desperately try to nerf and buff, you also realize that champions are not cut from the same cloth. You cannot sew on an inch of cloth to wool and expect it to function the same way cloth + and inch of cloth would function, in the same way you cannot expect to be able to balance every champion in the game if you continue pumping them out.
My attempt at a persuasive Confucius metaphor. Hue.

edit 2: I remembered one.

The time when this thread goes unneeded is the time a Summoner can enter a ranked game, with bans he had to think about in accordance with his or her picks, his or her team's picks, if you know the enemy, the enemy team's picks, and have less to fear in terms of what your team picks, (sub par champions) what the enemy team picks (outclassing champions) and play with no mention of the viability of their champion, no complaints about the strength of the enemy champions but rather ideas on how to overcome them. (this goes in accordance with counters to champions which subsequently can make them balanced)

Also another thing: There are several parts of balancing you need to consider. I'm sure you already do, but champions, maps and bans are but a small portion of balance. Just having 10 champions in a game, compared to the number of champions available is a point to consider, taking what I'm saying with a pinch of salt. Having a different 10 champions in a game completely changes everything you just did to balance the game, unless you have something which extends further than a game:
Items themselves.
An example? Sunfire cape.

Ideas, Riot. Here they are.

--
<this post took me so long to write, as I had a long train of thought in my head. as a result, I actually missed several (about 2 or 3) good points in my opinion that may have influenced you, the reader's interpretation of this thread and League of Legends. I'll edit this thread when I can recall the points. Sorry!>
"Her spellshield will nullify any spell in the game, most importantly spells that counter her absurd speed. There's nothing to counter a spellshield when it is up"

Really?

I stopped reading here, sorry, but BUY A FROZEN HEART!!!
Also, spells with super low cooldowns (Cassi and Karthus for example.) counter her spell shield pretty effectively, I mean sure she may block that 1 Twin Fang or Miasma tick, but the other 10 of those she's about to get hit with are most likely going to kill her.


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Taliesin

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Right - and the only way to fix a perception like that is to simply deliver. On newer issues, we've been doing this (and will continue to), but our early days taught us a lot of lessons of how to share information more effectively.

For new champions, this isn't an eventually, it's a "from now on." That's the key here.
I very much look forward to the champions from here on out


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IS1879fbf8ece39275db4d9

Senior Member

01-31-2012

[QUOTE=Morello;20394689I'm personally excited about on this front, especially in the new champion awesomeness and game health improvements.[/QUOTE]

I started playing LoL two years ago and since then you've been saying that every single champion released is awesome. Seriously, if Karma is awesome, I don't want to live on this planet anymore.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-31-2012
4 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Azmadi View Post
While I appreciate this post, Morello, can you give us any kind of assurance that you actually intend to STAND by this? Without meaning to sound rude, the vast majority of claims and promises Riot have made over the past couple of years have turned out to be, not to put too fine a point on it, bullsh!t. I'm afraid you've squandered your reservoirs of good faith with a lot of us, myself included, with fiascos like champion IP pricing, Project Shiny and Magma Chmaber disappearing into the aether, the stealth rework apparently being lost down the back of the couch, the utterly RUBBISH Kayle rework etc etc. Can you promise us that you won't immediately go back to releasing bland, generic, painfully UP or blatantly OP champions as soon as you run out of original ideas, just to maintain your "1 champ every 2 weeks" mandate? Because I'd prefer not to have a new champ at all than any more lame ones. The game is OVERFLOWING. Can you promise us that, Morello?
To be fair, a lot of those are due to poor management of releasing information from ye olden tymes. This is something we've gotten better at managing, where more recent things have been delivered upon (creating a new pattern).

For this, though, there's nothing I can say here that changes anything, right? I mean, if that's our commitment, there's nothing left to do but deliver - if you don't trust the original post, no additional thing I will post will change that :P


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-31-2012
5 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lashrack View Post
I started playing LoL two years ago and since then you've been saying that every single champion released is awesome. Seriously, if Karma is awesome, I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
Have I really? I don't think you can back that claim up :P


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-31-2012
6 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasticoreFTW View Post
This completely. My concern with the new champion direction is if they can compete with the recently released champions. I don't mind going back to champions with 1 low cool down ability and 2 longer cool downs, abilities that you need to consider when to use and plan more effectively. I get having champions with mana issues, because if you don't need to watch your mana, you might as well not have it. What happens then when these new champions are put against someone like Ahri or Riven in lane though? Champions with sustain, CC, mobility, high damage, and great pushing power. They have very little weakness and are hard to effectively counter.

The problem becomes making champions that aren't Irelia (everything in a sexy package) means you are making champions that aren't competitive on release, by design. The old champions will need to fall into line with the new ideal, or the new champions will just fall by the wayside.
That's a live thing we'll have to work on. Jarvan is balanced now, for example, but he's not nearly as fun when balanced because of some of the overload on basic skills. Luckily, we change **** all the time, so we can make adjustments


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Vertica

Senior Member

01-31-2012

"we will really be pushing out some creative champion design this year" ... crosses fingers ... *releases Sejuani* ... facepalm.


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Stanley Tweedle

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lashrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lashrack View Post
I started playing LoL two years ago and since then you've been saying that every single champion released is awesome. Seriously, if Karma is awesome, I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
Have I really? I don't think you can back that claim up :P
Have I really? I don't think you can back that claim up :P
But she IS awesome... I've just played against Karma 2 games back, and if not for me being a properly singeded top solo Singed vs Karma + Fizz, the game would've been totally lost merely because of a good Karma.


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StretchyStretch

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Senior Member

01-31-2012

Big, long, well thought out post. Generic Riot responses. Nothing done about it.