@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

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Mister Sheen

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01-28-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
I dont think the system is entirely viable, One of the ways i play twitch is to sneak around the enemy team and engage behind them with his ult when the team has engaged from the front, Or i stalk selected targets till i find the chance to take them down. Its risky with wards and oracles but worth it when you pull it off. This new system would make both situations relatively hard/impossible. Whats the point of being invisible if they can see you when you get into attack range anyway?

Twitch is squishy as hell, He can only engage 1v1 unless hes been insanely fed through the enemies lack of wards and oracles. The risk is high but rewarding.

I think the system above would render stealth abit uselss, who cares about sneaking past a minion wave if you cannot get near your mark without them seeing you. I play twitch as my main, and i watch my stealth carefully and play carefully, i have good and bad games. If i see someone buys oracles i focus them, I buy oracles myself to take out wards.

I think it needs alot more consideration


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THA DANGER ZONE

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01-28-2012

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Originally Posted by DoTsRule View Post
I dont think the system is entirely viable, One of the ways i play twitch is to sneak around the enemy team and engage behind them with his ult when the team has engaged from the front, Or i stalk selected targets till i find the chance to take them down. Its risky with wards and oracles but worth it when you pull it off. This new system would make both situations relatively hard/impossible. Whats the point of being invisible if they can see you when you get into attack range anyway?

Twitch is squishy as hell, He can only engage 1v1 unless hes been insanely fed through the enemies lack of wards and oracles. The risk is high but rewarding.

I think the system above would render stealth abit uselss, who cares about sneaking past a minion wave if you cannot get near your mark without them seeing you. I play twitch as my main, and i watch my stealth carefully and play carefully, i have good and bad games. If i see someone buys oracles i focus them, I buy oracles myself to take out wards.

I think it needs alot more consideration
You realize this rework comes with an entire rework on his kit and quality of life changes right? It's not going to be the same Twitch at all, and will result in a new style of play for stealth champions


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Mister Sheen

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01-28-2012

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Originally Posted by CuteBabyPandas View Post
You realize this rework comes with an entire rework on his kit and quality of life changes right? It's not going to be the same Twitch at all, and will result in a new style of play for stealth champions
Yes i do, but regardless of that fact eve and twitch are the type of champ that have high risk/reward.

My main gripe with this system is that you can be seen without the enemy spending money, whats the point of having stealth if they can see you anyway, you may aswell play a stronger champ hide out of line of sight and engage carefully, its the same thing.


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Willfox

Senior Member

01-28-2012

This could be Good or bad. I really hate the sound of it because, whats the point in having stealth if you walk into a bush and get pillaged? Some of Eve's great usefulness atm is that she can brush check and be a moving ward for the team and to balance out losing that her damage output would need to be buffed considerably or she would still be bad. However as soon as you increase her dmg, her laning phase roam goes back to god level. It seems pretty futile...

Also Oracles never stopped eve before because of its pitiful range, you just had to play smarter to get around it. Ult+Ghostblade and you are on top of them with a stun and killing them in 2seconds.

I'll try to reserve all judgement till its actually done, but it doesn't sound like it will make a difference other then be annoying.


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Pikeh

Senior Member

01-28-2012

6 months from this... Can we get some update?


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Harold greybeard

Senior Member

01-28-2012

Ruarhhghhghg


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Jayjayko

Senior Member

01-28-2012

Update plz!


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Digikid13

Senior Member

01-28-2012

D: Need updates


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Manson21

Senior Member

01-28-2012

Bump


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Caosso

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01-28-2012

Bumping for the 4th time.