I'm saying it: Last hitting is an archaic game mechanic

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kthnxbai

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Recruiter

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draydan View Post
In Dominion last hitting doesnt matter.
And (surprise surprise!) Dominion is interesting to watch, has impressive comebacks (hence not over-snowball-ish) and not shallow at all.

In Dominion I have much more close games when the outcome is decided in the last minutes than in Classic.
In Classic its mostly decided in 15-20 minutes, then its snowballing shallow uninteresting "kicking of the weak"
dominion is not in the least fun to watch... or even to play


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Xpload

Adjudicator

01-26-2012

Riot stopped experimenting with Summoner's Rift when the Beta ended. I agree killing minions from one point on is pure boredoom and is very important so you cannot simply ignore it. I also have a few things in mind for improving it:
- Tower's bounty decays. We all know that loosing towers is inevitable. Late game towers die in a few swings. When I kill an enemy tower early on I don't feel like a winner. My creeps will push further ahead and I will be in bigger danger. This isn't worth the X gold I get 5 minutes earlier than the enemy.
- Increase minions' hp. So when I push my lane and gather a big amount of friendly creeps I don't "drive a gold train" to the enemy.
- Increase tower attack speed and reduce the damage. Pushing my lane and holding my enemy under his tower (as intuitive as it seems) is wrong and is disadvantage for me. Tower damage is predictable (two tower hits on melee then you last hit/ hit, tower hit, then you last hit casters). Also make it so towers target enemies in cases where no creeps are attacking it. So when creep waves collide near tower, the tower doesn't ignore you while you decimate it.
- Revert the damage nerf of the minions. ATM you can as well rename them to "6 wagon gold train".

From one point killing minion waves is so easy. If it was harder and more time consuming then prob people would fight each other and take risks as it will be worth it.


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Alice Twilight

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Senior Member

01-26-2012

The problem is you're looking at everything from purely a gold perspective, this game is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. It's bad when I can look at every argument you made and simply point out that you're looking at things from far too narrow a perspective.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xpload View Post
Riot stopped experimenting with Summoner's Rift when the Beta ended. I agree killing minions from one point on is pure boredoom and is very important so you cannot simply ignore it. I also have a few things in mind for improving it:
- Tower's bounty decays. We all know that loosing towers is inevitable. Late game towers die in a few swings. When I kill an enemy tower early on I don't feel like a winner. My creeps will push further ahead and I will be in bigger danger. This isn't worth the X gold I get 5 minutes earlier than the enemy.
- Increase minions' hp. So when I push my lane and gather a big amount of friendly creeps I don't "drive a gold train" to the enemy.
- Increase tower attack speed and reduce the damage. Pushing my lane and holding my enemy under his tower (as intuitive as it seems) is wrong and is disadvantage for me. Tower damage is predictable (two tower hits on melee then you last hit/ hit, tower hit, then you last hit casters). Also make it so towers target enemies in cases where no creeps are attacking it. So when creep waves collide near tower, the tower doesn't ignore you while you decimate it.
- Revert the damage nerf of the minions. ATM you can as well rename them to "6 wagon gold train".

From one point killing minion waves is so easy. If it was harder and more time consuming then prob people would fight each other and take risks as it will be worth it.
The tower bounty decay is an interesting alternative to my destroying tower gives team + gp / 10 -- both look to accomplish the same thing -- reward the player for winning their lane and getting a tower early, since it has significant downfalls to kill already.

The rest of the proposed changes are interesting as well. I had more ideas for tower edits as well, I just didn't want to overwhelm my document with too many changes so I decided to focus on the core ones.

I was thinking something along the lines of -- if we gave the player more incentive to kill towers, than make them take longer to kill, and fire faster (possibly with reduced damage).

This would make it so dying at the wrong time doesn't mean you lose your tower to one minion push + champion before you have a chance to get back. Killing towers in a lane should feel more like a team objective, rather than a "I can't get to that lane within 15 seconds, that tower is as good as gone," ninja tactic.

The goal of increasing tower fire rate but lowering damage would be that they would be more efficient at killing minions (not as much overkill damage wasted per shot), but not be much more efficient at killing a champion (towers already hurt a lot early game).

Good ideas, I like the way you are thinking.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice Twilight View Post
The problem is you're looking at everything from purely a gold perspective, this game is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. It's bad when I can look at every argument you made and simply point out that you're looking at things from far too narrow a perspective.
The document was "LoL Income Proposal" obviously it's focused around the way we gather income in the game. I started out by explaining that getting the most gold is one of the primary ways to win the game. It's the most visible stat in spectator mode, and in general the team that has earned the most gold wins the match. Good teamwork / strategic team decisions can overcome a deficit for sure, but as a general rule the team with more farm has the advantage and is going to win, unless they mess up.


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Rubyron

Member

01-26-2012

thus is why dominion focuses less about cs?


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Nienna

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Senior Member

01-26-2012

bump


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CountMonteFisto

Junior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Is it really a layer of depth though? Can you imagine how much more fun the game would be, with all of it's champions, if we didn't have a base mechanic that promoted passive play and not being agressive within your lane?

When I watch the top ELO streamers ignore the turret so they can continue to safely farm CS for the first twenty minutes of the game (most evident in the current top game meta) I can't help but feel there is something wrong with the current system and what it promotes gameplay wise.
Preach what you will, ill still play taric support and wait for dumb ****s too push my lane so my caitlyn can E closer too the guy i stun since he was retarded enough too push my lane for "more gold" while our rammus ganks the everloving **** out of them

Greed in CS spawns kills for the enemy, as a support i see guys who push hard get raped by junglers and even the other lane all the time.

Another note, it may apply too SC2 more then LoL but it still stands, Aggressive Play > Greedy Play > Standard Play > Aggressive Play

And something tells me if these changes were too happen it would phase out aggressive play as something unique and make it standard thus making it Standard play > Greedy Play

Worth an attempt, but it would get changed back faster then the katarina shunpo "in-front or Behind" killer instinct changes.


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-26-2012

I added a post-script about Dominion to the OP in bold, hopefully people will stop making comparisons to it... or at least fewer people (some people only read the title of a thread and click reply without even reading the OP, can't help those people!)


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iainB85

Senior Member

01-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AminalCracker View Post
Preach what you will, ill still play taric support and wait for dumb ****s too push my lane so my caitlyn can E closer too the guy i stun since he was retarded enough too push my lane for "more gold" while our rammus ganks the everloving **** out of them

Greed in CS spawns kills for the enemy, as a support i see guys who push hard get raped by junglers and even the other lane all the time.

Another note, it may apply too SC2 more then LoL but it still stands, Aggressive Play > Greedy Play > Standard Play > Aggressive Play

And something tells me if these changes were too happen it would phase out aggressive play as something unique and make it standard thus making it Standard play > Greedy Play

Worth an attempt, but it would get changed back faster then the katarina shunpo "in-front or Behind" killer instinct changes.
But... what you describe is someone pushing because they are greedy. With the current system, nobody pushes because they are greedy... they only push if they are going to get the tower, or are dumb. You receive no reward for doing anymore damage besides the last hit, so if you are killing people who are wildly pushing your lane over and over again... you are killing dumb people, not aggressive people.