Is the Invoker Champion the pinnacle of 'Anti-Fun'?

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Morello

Lead Designer

01-21-2012
16 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
Those of you who know Day[9] predominantly from the SC2 e-sports scene, he has just recently made his 400th Daily in which he discusses Assumptions.

One of the big assumptions he looks at is 'broader knowledge = more skill'. He shows that it's better to know a few things really well rather than have a broad range of knowledge.

The same can be applied to champion design. It's better to have a champion that does fewer things with a lot of intricacies than a champion that does a lot of simpler things.
Agreed - we were just talking about this today.


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EmptyCapital

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Get Real Kid View Post
Not to outright speak for Morello, as he is defending his point quite adequately, I feel as if many people confuse this "depth" in heroes from DotA and HoN with a lack of repetition to the extent that it is carried out in LoL.

Example: In any given game of DotA as Vengeful Spirit or Sven, during the early game, I may cast my stun (prior to level 6) an amount of times counted on my fingers due to the way that mana works (costing almost 1/3 of my bar). Whereas, in a game of League, as a champion like Riven or Udyr, I stun my enemy every few seconds, for almost no cost at all.

The point I'm trying to make is that LoL is every bit as deep as HoN or DotA, but in a different way. HoN/DotA simply feel more "deep" because LoL is more about utilizing your abilities optimally; i.e. perfecting Riven's combo to the point where if your enemy is at 3/4 hp you can kill them before they can react. However, in DotA/HoN you don't actually USE your abilities nearly as much, because you are more or less waiting to take advantage of your opponents' mistakes.

TL;DR: Do not mistake "lack of repetition" for depth.
That's one of the points I never liked about dota. You start with 250 mana and your level 1 ability costs 150. I was always terribly bored early game because I could only cast like 1 spell every minute.


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Dustbin

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a great point - I think this is one of the (if not the most) offending design shift. Cooldowns and costs are too low overall, and by a lot.

Amumu's ultimate is really vanilla - PBAOE crowd Control - but it takes an eon to come on cooldown. This adds really simple, but effective, strategy to when to use it. Sure, you could kill some dude with it when he's low, but will you need to fight for Dragon soon? Could you have saved it and ganked 2 bottom? A lot of these considerations come into play when there's a cost to using the skill that makes you reconsider pushing the button.

Amumu's ultimate is almost a carbon copy of rooftrellen's, in the way it works and the cooldown. I don't really see this as a major design choice by you more as picking a working good idea. (Not that that's bad, just that you shouldn't try to paint it as otherwise.)


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Kurø

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'm gonna point this out - I'm not interested in, frankly, elitist "everyone but me is an idiot and those idiots ruin everything" drivel. I'm happy to have a conversation about depth, complexity and clarity so we can have a discussion, but if you think the problem is because people are idiots (and you're oh so smart), then there's nothing to talk about that will add value to the conversation.
Just gained so much respect for you.

But I will admit of thought of you as nothing more than teemo with a tiara and a nerfbat thanks to a fan story I once read about renekton tanking >.>


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-21-2012
17 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustbin View Post
Amumu's ultimate is almost a carbon copy of rooftrellen's, in the way it works and the cooldown. I don't really see this as a major design choice by you more as picking a working good idea. (Not that that's bad, just that you shouldn't try to paint it as otherwise.)
No, I'm painting it as a good example - I don't care if it's original to LoL.

I care very, very little about originality, only making stuff that's good.


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Gaijin Desu

Member

01-21-2012

Morello, you keep odd hours, but I approve of your tenacity. Many people have valid concerns and its good to have such an active dev on the forum.

If only this were true of devs in different departments... xD


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TheGoonie

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Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigercule X View Post
This has probably been said before, but on the off-chance it hasn't...

Nidalee:
Is she in cougar? Then this is her 3. Is she in human? Then this is her 3.
You can easily tell what 3 abilities she has.
LeBlanc:
also has 3 abilities -- one can just be used twice for bonus damage. That's really not "learning" anything.
Lee Sin:
Did I throw something at you? I'll probably jump at you.
Do I have a shield? I'm harder to kill. Just like with ANY champ that has a shield on. His just adds a few extra stats. Not hard to remember.
Did I mark you in essentially melee range? You'll probably get mini-exhausted and shown.
I can kick you away.


None of those are hard to remember.
Your post is somewhat comical and childish, plus you have don't quite understand what burden of proof actually means. Le Blanc is the single most poorly thought out champion in all of the MOBA games. She is just such a volatile and horrible champion that she's my definition of anti fun. Being tower dived for 1500 damage at lvl 11 is not in anyway fun at all. The fact that you will not know exactly how much damage she'll do on her mimic spell unless you play her religiously knowing direct current ap to skill ap ratios is one type of burden of knowledge. Invoker however, has 10 spells but is not affected by a damage modifier such as Ability Power. It is not hard at all to memorise 10 spells. I have no problem knowing how each spell works, but I do have a problem with knowing how much damage leblancs gonna instagib me for because of AP.


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DapperJope

Senior Member

01-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, I'm painting it as a good example - I don't care if it's original to LoL.

I care very, very little about originality, only making stuff that's good.
New Jax remake? Trollololol.

I see what you did there, Trollello.


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Alice Twilight

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Senior Member

01-21-2012

Morello, I do like characters with interesting kits though, Yes I think Invoker is completely ridiculous in far too many ways. On the other hand I can appreciate the amount of customization that playing him offers. I will from time to time just play the 'right click enemy' champions because they are fun in a different way but I really like doing stuff and champions with interesting kits. And while I think that Invoker is bad in that he's hard to predict and does too much stuff, I like the idea of champions that get to do lots of stuff. Of course what I hate most about invoker is his abilities don't mesh particularly well, I think Fizz was perfect in that regard, his kit worked really well.


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Bledgor

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Senior Member

01-21-2012

Morello are you an insomniac as well? Thanks for answering some questions, and not skirting around the issue. I appreciate it, shows you care.