Heimerdinger Exhaustively Examined

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EnderDDT

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Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderingice View Post
bumping and commenting that i think that the section on heimer rockets should probably be compared to nid or grag or another poke champ since that is the only reason he is considered viable tho i dont know if he still is after dan's heimer got romped by regi's leblanc. i do hope someone from the live team will give feedback. i think this thread deserves it.
The problem with making any comparison about dissimilar things in dissimilar circumstances is that the best you can do is create analogies and general comparisons and so, because I wanted to at least try to not put up too much text, i limited myself to only one example. Sona's move simply has the most obvious similarities. I did look at the other moves, though, so I will leave a little of that information behind for you.

Nidalee's spear actually has longer range and deals a lot more damage but it is a skill shot that lacks a high travel speed. Other than that the usage and drawbacks are extremely similar. Both are line missiles that are blocked by minions and tanked with magic resist and usually used before combat to soften up the enemy or during combat to add in a small amount of damage to the fray. The difference is that Nidalee's move does more single target damage, has 50% longer range, costs 50% less to use, and has nearly half the base cool-down. In addition her move speed, defenses, and ability to go cougar make her a lot safer at poking despite not needing to be as close to do it.

Gragas is even tankier but his his "barrel roll" ability can show the weaknesses in both Heimer's rockets and his grenades. Against Heimer's rockets it costs less, has 40% better AP ratios, has longer range, adds CC, and can hit a lot more enemies. Versus his Grenade; while it Gragas's move lacks hard CC, it has longer range, better damage, lower cooldown, a larger AoE, and the option for a delayed blast. Gragas's one move is so much better that it can nearly take over the job of /both/ of Heimer's abilities.

Or I could talk about Maoki's sapling toss, which does over 50% more damage, in an AoE that is larger than Heimer's grenade, that can be aimed behind minions, with 10% longer basic range, 50% longer total range, costs less, and has the additional benefit of warding and protecting the area where it has been places. The only advantage Heimer has is a slightly shorter cooldown, but that is hardly a fair trade off for everythnig that Maoki gets. And the real kicker of using Maoki to poke? The tree is also faster than Heimer as well as the typical "tank" stats that one might expect.

Or I could talk about Living Artilery, or Death Ray, or most any long range poke. Heck, even Jarvin's rally flag (also known as "Demacian Standard") nearly beats out Heimer's rockets despite the fact that the point of Jarvin's ability is not even to deal damage.

Ah well, I'm sure you get the idea. I doubt there is much more I could say to bring the issue home more than it already has been.


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Xj6

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Senior Member

01-12-2012

This, deserves a bump.


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Desert Rain

Senior Member

01-12-2012

bump of justice.

I agree with every single thing you've said. Heimer used to be one of my absolute favorite champs. His skin was the first christmas skin I bought and I was so excited to use it. Then I remembered his current state and thought, "You know, maybe I can still make it work."

I couldn't .


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MrMinionman

Senior Member

01-12-2012

They are already working on a rework... I think they said something about making his playstyle more active while attempting to maintain his core identity.


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SnowMourne

Junior Member

01-12-2012

Nice analysis, I agree 100%. Bump the thread.

I hope they do something about his ult, it is pretty lame for such a long cooldown. The slow is cool, but with such frail turrets the heal does little to maintain them alive. As you said, Heim has to position his turrets and pray that they are not targeted (or he is not targeted) for them to make decent damage.

In teamfigths with minions Heim can be useless, with the minions getting all the missiles and the turrets attention.

Also his passive must be the worst passive in the game. The little heal one can get from Heim's aura is ridiculous, and most of the time it is not worth it to stay in a tower 10-12 min turtling to heal it when at mid-end game you could do something better.


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crzymdscntst

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Bump.

I still say his Ulti is his deadbeat skill that doesn't really help him as much as you'd think. The grenade and rocket buffs are pretty much a joke in themselves. The freeze is it's best part. The cooldowns inherently limit his build options and his cooldowns are set with those reduced ones in mind.


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EnderDDT

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01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMinionman View Post
They are already working on a rework... I think they said something about making his playstyle more active while attempting to maintain his core identity.
I've heard other people talk about the supposed remake, but is there some official source to find information on it or is it just an unsubstantiated rumor? Could anyone point me to a source if there is one?


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crzymdscntst

Senior Member

01-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderDDT View Post
I've heard other people talk about the supposed remake, but is there some official source to find information on it or is it just an unsubstantiated rumor? Could anyone point me to a source if there is one?
I'm not sure. I've heard of it myself, something about a single Riot Employee working on it, but beyond that.... T.T

I do know I saw a post somewhere quoting a Euro-Red post, essentially the Red saying "Heim is fine"...

However, we all know differently.


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EnderDDT

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01-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by crzymdscntst View Post
I'm not sure. I've heard of it myself, something about a single Riot Employee working on it, but beyond that.... T.T

I do know I saw a post somewhere quoting a Euro-Red post, essentially the Red saying "Heim is fine"...

However, we all know differently.
After some research I found that FeralPony was supposed to be working on the Heimerdinger, but she said "I don't personally feel Heimer is a bad champion. That said, he is suffering from a few problems such as super high mana costs on his spells. I had heard talk that we were looking at normalizing his costs a bit." in this post: http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=1797353#1797353 . The way it was phrased makes it seem like someone else may be working on heimer, not FeralPony, and that the reduction on his turret costs may be the entire "rework" that they had in mind. It was confirmed, however, that the reason why the remake was being so difficult was because of his turrets.

Perhaps if the problem is how to make them scale defensively throughout the entire game (which cannot be accomplished through either per skill level or per character level increases because neither of these continue changing throughout the entire game) than the answer is to make a significant portion of their defense scale off something that goes up throughout the entire game, like Heimer's AP. This would not only allow them to be rebalanced so as not to be too strong or weak in the early game (when people have usually 30ap) but also could be balanced to deal with both the normal full build numbers (where people have 600ap max) and the hyper focused builds (where people can have just over 1000ap max). At a 1.5 health per AP ratio the difference between the two builds is only 600hp for the turret along with a heimer with no utility or defenses other than his turrets if he decides to go the min/max route (to max out up to 1000 ap requires giving up even boots for more damage), which is a tactical decision that makes for a deeper character. There may be other ways, but that is one suggestion.

But really, RIOT may not even be looking at him anymore for all I can tell. They may /think/ he is fixed and balanced at this point.


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Invictrix

Senior Member

01-14-2012

Heimerdinger is on my list of underpowered champions see my thread.