Sejuani and female champs

First Riot Post
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Rivini

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not.
And that would be a bad thing? A player won't be able to enjoy a champion if they can't distinguish what *** the champion is?
Remember a champion named Kog'Maw? There's plenty of speculation over its *** due to two of its skins (the butterfly and Deep Sea skins). Is Kog'Maw hated? Not that I've seen.

There's a character in a manga/anime called Soul Eater named Crona. This character exhibits traits from both genders and no one knows what Crona's true *** is. Despite that, Crona has a huge fan following and is loved, including myself. Google him/her if needed.

Anyway, even as a woman, I don't get offended by the "*** sells" business model every company exploits, but there are times when it honestly isn't necessary. Putting more clothes on Sejuani and/or giving her a little muscle or fat wouldn't fool anyone into thinking she's male. Hearing her voice or even reading her lore is enough. A constant reminder like huge breasts or skimpy clothes when playing her is just silly and an obvious exploitation of the "*** sells" business model. I understand that you're trying to cover it up, but I'm only expressing that no one's fooled.

I for one would love to see more realistic, varied females in LoL. Even crude ones. Aside from Annie, Anivia, Poppy and Tristana, every female has a sultry voice with a figure to match. Most of their dying voice tracks consist of what would be mistaken for orgasmic moans in any other context, or trying to poop, depending on how they sound to you. Orianna, an android whom isn't capable of feeling, even does so.


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whoknowsforever

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I dont care what riot does. Ill buy any champ with boobies


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Hotsuchi

Senior Member

01-13-2012

As a female player, I like skinner female champions. I just can't imagine playing a bigger champion, but then maybe I'm just a product of society and because I am a product of an overweight mother. Do I believe we should all be stick figures, no my size 7 which is considered a "plus" size in modeling is perfectly fine and healthy. Being a larger size isn't bad, but its also not the healthiest so I'd rather not promote it. (which someone could then argue about gragas yea yea he's Santa though :P lol)


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Heartz

Junior Member

01-13-2012

I bet we would all like some Gragas-like female champion, don't we?


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Hoyoku

Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!
Please get into how battle heels are a functional design.


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Loc

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Point View Post
What really set me off about this thread was Leona. More Leona's plate mail high heels.
There are like 80 pages of people responding (Some more poorly than others) with champions they feel dont share the same "Model" as every other female.

But thats not enough. But that is ok, you have your opinion and thats fine. EXCEPT for Leona.

This strikes a cord with me because of ALL the tanks she looks the most intimidating.
Have you seen Defender Leona?
What about her is in anyway similar to other female champions? Is it the most epic battle worn Shield that sends Taric and Pantheon away with envy. Or her battled hardend mother ****ing Claymore in one hand none the less.

On a more serious note. Nothing aside from "Plated heels" could even be considered dainty. Her role is a tank, her dance is a series of swings and shield bashes, her taunt involves banging her shield and in mock of her enemies asking them to just to "Just try and make a dent", her joke again shows her overall toughness since by showing you the process of her garb. Her shield which is dug into the earth with a single swing leaving only a loud CLANG, her sword buried, she even goes as far as to remove her PLATED gauntlets before in almost jest of your argument proclaiming " I think i broke a nail". Her movement quotes are "I will break there line" "They will be sundered" "They'll have to go through me" and "rally to me". Never mind her lore stats she was battle born, can hold her own vs pantheon

Leona is by far everything you would ask for, but no.... She has heels.

Thats the problem with this entire thread. its NO ALL FEMALES ARE THE SAME.
When there not. No female monster you say? Oh wait, Anivia was in Beta.

No female champions who are not dainty, skimpy, reused skins. Again Leona, Vayne, (You couldn't even tell if she had a bust except for dragon slayer and aristocrat) Karma, Kayle, (Who you couldnt even tell was a female unless you played her, got unmaked, she got remade) Shyvana.

But, But Cassiopeia is just a busty buxom fembot put on top of a snake. You mean the girl whos ENTIRE LORE is based of her SEDUCING people. If they made a male equivalent and he wasnt dashing and handsome everyone would complain. And truthfully they would have a right to.

So lets take a step back. Lets just say your right. All the women should not have the same slender frame.

Ok.

Let me ask you something than. What famous (Or simply successful) woman in a professional athletic career is not slim? Seriously, what woman in a profession that requires constant stress on there muscles is not slim? And before you say "But, Gragas.... He is fat" he has the LARGEST defined biceps, quaducepts, and Triceps of any champion in the game. Even Urgot has a huge Bicep (On his only arm). If it isnt covered by clothing its buff and defined. If Karthus took his shirt off, his abs and pecks would kill you before his ult did.

-There, i tried to keep it light because i didnt want to be mean. But seriously, there is a lot of variety in ALL the champions here. And to be frank, the only reason i could think someo ne would become THAT upset about it is a confidence issue. a "Im a strong female/male but i dont look like that so they must be wrong" attitude.
I think it's kind of funny that you bring up not only Leona, but Defender Leona specifically. In case my opinions on Leona were ambiguous, let me make one thing clear. I adore Leona, and her Defender skin is one of my favorites in the entire game. I actually made a mention of it in my response to IronStylus' first post on this thread thanking him for his input.

Now, regarding my comment about her heels. Yes, you're right. She's one of the toughest, baddest, meanest tanks around. A rough-around-the-edges girl that don't take no guff. She's a hardened warrior, courageous, intimidating, and all that good stuff you mentioned your post. Her joke where she removes her gauntlet is also one of my favorite emotes.

And yet she struts into battle wearing heels. And her arms are insanely thin, despite her giant shield and sword. These things run directly against how she's presented, characterized, voiced, and animated. There's a serious disconnect between who she is and her physique, and that dissonance is in essence why I even started this thread. It can be seen in a lot of female champions. Often their bodies don't support how they're characterized, unlike the majority of male champions who are, in general, very appropriately proportioned (considering their characters). The supermodel type body happens to be the most common physique among adult human female champions; the ladies are busty, thin, and have hourglass figures. They're not identical and there is variation among them, but things tend to stick to this default form.

You seem to be assuming I'm simply arguing that larger female champions should be in the game, but that's only part of it. I also want thinner champions, stockier, rounder, shorter, more buff, more athletic, more everything. I want variety appropriate to the champion. You mentioned that Vayne's bust would go unnoticed were it not for one of her skins, but why is that even an inherent aspect of her design if it's not essential to her character or even suited to her? I want the disconnect between who a champion is and what she looks like to not be as large or go away entirely, because that's the treatment that nearly every single male champion receives. If she's supposed to be strong, "in a profession that requires constant stress on [her] muscles," as you phrased it, it should be reflected in her body just as it is in almost every male champion, as you yourself pointed out.


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Hotburger

Junior Member

01-13-2012

I would like to see more female monster type champs. Next time they make some weird creature they should give it a female voice.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotburger View Post
I would like to see more female monster type champs. Next time they make some weird creature they should give it a female voice.
Doesn't this statement support that everything is male unless it has obvious female traits? Honestly, Cho'gath and Kog'maw don't have male voices, they just have bizarre voices. Why can't it just have a monstrous voice and still have the pronoun, "she," in its lore?


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RBeckham

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I'm going to be critical; fair warning :^p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!
I get the joke, but you are rejecting a legitimate complaint through playful language rather than honest confrontation. The same language was used in the discussion of Leona's appearance, and here we are with a new visual design that is unchanged from the past designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.
Then you failed in your goals as an artist? That's the excuse, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.
I guess the question must be, then, why can't you, as a creative, be drawn to something different? Isn't that the point of creativity? Is that not what separates copy cats from true creators? And if so, then, why can't you bend your perspective to that of another? Believe it or not, in spite of media trends, there is a world of people who explicitly don't find your female body types attractive.

I appreciate the honesty of that paragraph, Iron. I really do. But in the face of weakness, you're reaction, since Leona, seems to have been to dismiss and continue on in the same. You haven't grown and judging from the dismissive language, I don't think you want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.
Why DO you care? You've got this high quality splash art that the player stares at for 3 minutes before the game starts. I think that's ample opportunity to establish the gender of a character. Then you have voice actresses for the game too; another big indication.

What about high heels. Tiny little shoes are of no gender indicative value if the characters are "so featureless" that it is hard to tell the gender.

Kayle. Here's a character that I didn't know was female when I started playing. All you had to do was have splash art with her helmet off and presto - she's female without any boob-plates or belly button action. (I play with voices off). Did this cause any sort of complication or disruption of my game enjoyment? NO!

It comes off as an excuse than some kind of critical point of necessity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
...I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there... However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye.
I cut up that quote pretty heavily, but there were a lot of filler words in between exactly what you were saying. You have issues with practicality of clothing, but feasibility in combat doesn't occur to you. You flinch at how too silly something is, but find it satisfying to create half naked women. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, Iron. I think the wrong is in only catering to your own desires and, in spite of lengthy conversations on the forums, continuing to satisfy only yourself and your like-minded coworkers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out.
Take a chance? Experiment with doodles? Come on - this is silly stuff to say to an artist and we know this has nothing to do with any argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona...
There's nothing reasonable about what Leona wears. If you really care, find someone who can explain to you, in person, why it looks absurd and work with them to create something they like. You might learn something or even have fun!

Quote:
I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it...
If by sometimes you mean all the time.

Quote:
Will we push limits in the future? Yes.
You didn't this time, again.

===

The thing i've noticed is just how playful your language is. You bring up funny ideas (microwaved mashed potatoes) and use them to lighten the conversation. That's great on a day to day basis and i'm sure you're a nice guy. But your language demonstrates that it isn't a concern to you. I mean, you might care that we care... but you're not about to do anything about it. You make your jokes, start a mini-leona love meme on the forums and basically keep the opinions different from your own, about female beauty and aesthetics, out of sight.

It isn't fair to me or like-minded individuals to hear you say that Leona is "more" aesthetically reasonable than, say, Ashe. Skin tight cloth/spandex over her vital organs is ridiculous looking and I can't take her seriously. People like me don't think covered women are unsexy... people like me don't think that women in boots can't be attractive. People like me have a very different perspective from you. It's your lack of ability to be serious and willing to do thing you don't personally like that limit you as an artist. And believe me, man, you could do some wonderful stuff if you'd just try.


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Hotburger

Junior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddalee View Post
Doesn't this statement support that everything is male unless it has obvious female traits? Honestly, Cho'gath and Kog'maw don't have male voices, they just have bizarre voices. Why can't it just have a monstrous voice and still have the pronoun, "she," in its lore?
Maokai and Skarner too. But I think of them as male because they have male voices (maybe not Kog, but Cho definitely. Especially with his "gentleman" skin) and the lore says they're male. I just think there should be more champs like Anivia, not exhibiting many human traits and having a female voice.

Edit: Actually let me elaborate a bit. Before Leona there was a lot of talk about wanting a female tank. Many ideas were posted on the forums, all of them an armored wearing human girl.

Now I ask you, how many tanks in this game are armor wearing human men? Taric? He's not really considered a tank. Garen? Again, not really a tank. Shen's a human, but not some big guy in platemail. Most tanks are not human at all. Then Riot releases a Leona, and guess what? She's a human in heavy armor. Why couldn't she be a monster like every other tank?