Sejuani and female champs

First Riot Post
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Maikky

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulúi View Post
I know a lot of people complain that in many male dominated audiences - such as the one for league of legends - females are over sexualised, wear ridiculously little clothing, and are generally skimpy and somewhat ****ty.
I'm female, I've been playing games for a long time and I like it. I like for everything to look pretty and attractive, and it's nice to not see all of the characters smothered in plate armour or whatever the realistic option is. That's fantasy, it's generally how it works. I'm not a **** irl, when I look at the characters I don't think they look ****ty, I just enjoy the artwork that comes with them.
Thats your opinion .

I'm not the only one that would think it would be cool to play a champion that scared the **** out of you or looked creepy to others .


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Elano

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

I want a huge obese chef lady champion that cooks buffs that are left on the ground for her allies to grab that would blow this out of the water real quick (Would also be pretty interesting gameplay imo)


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Ayriuss

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Most young women are slender.... especially athletic women. So its perfectly realistic body proportions for where Riot Games is located.

Also ask any woman whether we would wanna play some ugly overweight guy or a ripped handsome character. Its no gd different.

You feminists annoy me, women as a whole are not downtrodden in our society, its fabricated BS.


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Lulúi

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maikky View Post
Thats your opinion .

I'm not the only one that would think it would be cool to play a champion that scared the **** out of you or looked creepy to others .
My intention was to share my opinion in this extremely large discussion, but thanks for pointing that out


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Ragafoo

Junior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
Very informative and revealing.

/wall of questions

I am curious how does global ethnicity and a skin color play into this conceptual ideal? Is this ideal figure based on the majority of what players like or what artists like? Is it based on what the artists is comfortable with? (E.G. More diverse artists = More diverse art exclusively?) Is the ideal based on what will sell better? I was wondering with all the female champions in game would see much more diversity in form, figure, and color within the lineup. As league of legends becomes more global and as characters reflect more world cultures is it just a matter of time before we see females with the many different skin colors and body that are scene everyday (slightly skewed of course to the strength and fortitude that champion of the League usually exhibits.)

Iron Stylus my question is how is ethnicity if ever considered when designing a character? Is skin color ever considered? Is it always a conscious decision? Is it whatever came off the pen? Do sketches and concepts go through revisions by other people to create what is the marketable female character? What is the process?

/ wall of questions


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Maikky

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayriuss View Post
Most young women are slender.... especially athletic women. So its perfectly realistic body proportions for where Riot Games is located.

Also ask any woman whether we would wanna play some ugly overweight guy or a ripped handsome character. Its no gd different.

You feminists annoy me, women as a whole are not downtrodden in our society, its fabricated BS.
Its quite obvious you haven't read of any thing and just speaking out of your ass .


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Lulúi

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayriuss View Post
Most young women are slender.... especially athletic women. So its perfectly realistic body proportions for where Riot Games is located.

Also ask any woman whether we would wanna play some ugly overweight guy or a ripped handsome character. Its no gd different.

You feminists annoy me, women as a whole are not downtrodden in our society, its fabricated BS.
If you're female also, I think I'm in love with you.


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Murasaki Ryu

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

As a female it annoys me that those who claim they want more covered female champions get the tag of being pro-feminist. Being perfectly honest here I'd say you are worse then those who want a bit of eye candy. Did you ever stop and think that maybe the lack of clothing is a cultural concept? That this is what those women wear, or even like to wear? The fact that you want them covered makes you no better then men who have controlled a woman's sexuality but making her wear head to toe clothing. Instead of being eye candy she is a kept-woman, who is hidden from view. I'd rather be the eye candy.

To be fair, a lot of the female champions are well covered. Vayne, Leona, Karma, Irelia, Kayle, Lux, Tristana, Poppy, Riven, Annie, and I would also add Ahri, Akali, and Ashe but I could see why some would say other wise. Then there are champions like Anivia, and Orianna. 15 out of 28 champions. I'd say that is a fair balance between the clad and the not so clad champions.

This is a fantasy game, not real life I don't want real life aspects of humanity in this game. It's has it's own lore and culture. I want eye candy. So what if some women in the game are super skinny? I'm never going to find a pretty boy like Ezreal in real life. And I know that.

True feminists ask for equality between men and women. We have scantily clad men and women. Fully clothed men and women. Robotic men and women. Male and Female animal champs. Male and Female Yordles. Male and Female Ninja's. Female tanks. Female carries. Male supports. Riot does a pretty good job at keeping things equal. It is you, community that try to jump down their throats every time they make a female champion that isn't conservatively covered or too skinny. Some women like to show off. Get over it.

Edit- Also I'd saying being covered in armor would be super uncomfortable. Wearing armor as a female would suck. I'd rather wear anything MF wears over something Lux or Kayle would wear.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaxtenn View Post
It annoys me that male champions get designs ranging from Gragas to Blitzcrank to Fiddlesticks to Shaco, while 100% of female champions released in the last 18 months are an identical figure with a different wig and weapon.
Blitzcrank isn't male, because he's not human, or even alive. He's masculine, because he looks and sounds male. Male and masculine are not the same thing.


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Maikky

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murasaki Ryu View Post
As a female it annoys me that those who claim they want more covered female champions get the tag of being pro-feminist. Being perfectly honest here I'd say you are worse then those who want a bit of eye candy. Did you ever stop and think that maybe the lack of clothing is a cultural concept? That this is what those women wear, or even like to wear? The fact that you want them covered makes you no better then men who have controlled a woman's sexuality but making her wear head to toe clothing. Instead of being eye candy she is a kept-woman, who is hidden from view. I'd rather be the eye candy.

To be fair, a lot of the female champions are well covered. Vayne, Leona, Karma, Irelia, Kayle, Lux, Tristana, Poppy, Riven, Annie, and I would also add Ahri, Akali, and Ashe but I could see why some would say other wise. Then there are champions like Anivia, and Orianna. 15 out of 28 champions. I'd say that is a fair balance between the clad and the not so clad champions.

This is a fantasy game, not real life I don't want real life aspects of humanity in this game. It's has it's own lore and culture. I want eye candy. So what if some women in the game are super skinny? I'm never going to find a pretty boy like Ezreal in real life. And I know that.

True feminists ask for equality between men and women. We have scantily clad men and women. Fully clothed men and women. Robotic men and women. Male and Female animal champs. Male and Female Yordles. Male and Female Ninja's. Female tanks. Female carries. Male supports. Riot does a pretty good job at keeping things equal. It is you, community that try to jump down their throats every time they make a female champion that isn't conservatively covered or too skinny. Some women like to show off. Get over it.
You seen any female monsters yet ?

O wait