Sejuani and female champs

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Man of God2

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernkastar View Post
I see where you are coming from, but can we PLEASE have a handsome (not overly muscular or aged), skin revealing, male young adult with some biologically gravitation characteristics? I want some male love in this department of matter.

I don't care too much about Riot idealizing female bodies for fan service, but I'm concerned that there's none in terms of males. I know the vast majority of players are straight males, but just ONE would suffice.

Or even a new, attractive Ezreal skin with a different haircut.
Does everyone so easily forget about Lee Sin. He is pretty much a boss.


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Veissdrachen

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieote View Post
This argument is never going to come to any kind of reasonable conclusion. :P And while it's probably a lost cause for me to throw in my two cents ... I will, anyway.

Women can still maintain a female figure, but contain visible muscle structure. It's not going to make them beefy, but it's going to add an underlying structure that makes them more believable in terms of their capability. And there's splash art, anyway.

And if we're talking about gender readability, why do characters like Ezreal and Malzahar exist? Or perhaps Shaco? They delineate from the definitive male structure! About the only thing that makes them especially "unfemale" is perhaps a nice rack. But you know, despite all of this, they still read as men. There are a lot of contributions to this, like splash art.

There are tons of ways to keep gender definition sound without the huge of exaggerated features. When I'm playing, say, Sona, I don't need her rack extending past her head to remind me that she is, indeed, a girl.

And as far as some female champions being more "clothed," I hate to say it but some of them wear clothes so tight and so friggin' form-fitting, that not much is left to the imagination, anyway and they may as well be as "naked" as their other female friends.

However, in the end, it's still an industry of appeal and no matter who complains, women or men, it's going to take a lot to change it, if ever. It's no different from hollywood, everything is idealized. And of course there's always the old adage: "*** sells." Men (generally) love it, women (generally) love to hate it. C'est la vie.
Lots of people make fun of Ezreal's androgynous body type and joke about him being female.

I mean, I don't know what you guys want. A cups are actually the least common cup size, and there's at least a variation between B and D cups between the female champions. Irelia's on the small side of that scale, Sona's on the large side. (This means champions that are scale-size humanoid, this discounts Poppy, Tristana, and Annie)

Some female champions have wider hips, some are slender and lithe. There IS VARIATION, PEOPLE.

On the other side, I'm actually a fan of the female champions who have really rich voice acting with a wide emotional range. (Riven is a great example)

tl:dr: Generally it is male unless it has boobs. Much harder to tell there are boobs when boobs are not B cup or higher.


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fujiou View Post
Riot doesn't make ugly champs in general anymore. Male or female.

There's a reason nobody plays Gragas, and I assure you it isn't his skillset.
The skillset is why I don't play Gragas. I don't know whether to be a tank, fatmage, or mage. I believe most people who stopped playing Gragas did it because his drink was nerfed.

I don't play Sion and Urgot because they are zombies, but I play Trundle and a little Yorick despite their being ugly.

I don't play Miss Fortune because she isn't even hot and still gets attention for being a *****; and I find showing off the underside of the tongue to be offensive.


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Sgonzo

Senior Member

01-13-2012

and what about kayle i always saw her models as the larger hipped sort of softer bodied female, but wears badass armour and looks like she could kick ass, i think the best example i cna think of from real life is the middle eastern belly dancers not quite tiny but still beautiful nonetheless


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

01-13-2012

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Originally Posted by Iauaruk View Post
Leona. Tristana.Annie.Poppy
You are a pedophile if you think Tristana, Annie and Poppy count for dressed women.


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Sgonzo

Senior Member

01-13-2012

and on a side note, i feel that Taric got the short end of the stick form art department all of his skins make his facial structure completely different i dont even know what he hsould look like


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MileyCyrusBAKING

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I woudl honestly pay 4875 rp for a bikini Irelia skin. it would seem to me it would be worth ti to riot to release a skin like that, you iknow people woudl buy it even as a status symbol or whatever


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Loc

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieote View Post
This argument is never going to come to any kind of reasonable conclusion. :P And while it's probably a lost cause for me to throw in my two cents ... I will, anyway.

Women can still maintain a female figure, but contain visible muscle structure. It's not going to make them beefy, but it's going to add an underlying structure that makes them more believable in terms of their capability. And there's splash art, anyway.

And if we're talking about gender readability, why do characters like Ezreal and Malzahar exist? Or perhaps Shaco? They delineate from the definitive male structure! About the only thing that makes them especially "unfemale" is perhaps a nice rack. But you know, despite all of this, they still read as men. There are a lot of contributions to this, like splash art.

There are tons of ways to keep gender definition sound without the huge of exaggerated features. When I'm playing, say, Sona, I don't need her rack extending past her head to remind me that she is, indeed, a girl.

And as far as some female champions being more "clothed," I hate to say it but some of them wear clothes so tight and so friggin' form-fitting, that not much is left to the imagination, anyway and they may as well be as "naked" as their other female friends.

However, in the end, it's still an industry of appeal and no matter who complains, women or men, it's going to take a lot to change it, if ever. It's no different from hollywood, everything is idealized. And of course there's always the old adage: "*** sells." Men (generally) love it, women (generally) love to hate it. C'est la vie.
You raise good points. I especially enjoy your mentioning of how slight male characters are very obviously male despite their lack of bulging muscles. And honestly, as far as I've seen you're the first person to mention the extremely form fitting clothing that occasionally shows up on some of the lady champs. I was looking at Vayne recently because, after things began drifting toward clothing, because I remember she was covered head to toe. But if you actually look at her...lets call it a bodysuit, it's completely skintight, and as you said, not much is left to the imagination.

It's true that it's an industry standard, not only for video games but all sorts of mass media. However, while change might come slowly, that's no reason not to try.


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Fentonation

Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
Did not read(I have a headache) but since your THE IronStylus, upvoe.


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SnakeChomp

Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not.
I have a serious question. Why does this matter?