Sejuani and female champs

First Riot Post
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Myrmidont

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Ah. Now I think I'm recalling why I may have glazed over particular arguments you may have raised, be they thoughtfully valid or ripe for dismissal.
Lets be honest, my post was made in anger at someone whom could not see any reason at all why gender mattered at all, and was crapping on the OP's discussion, you're reading too far into this post. and its unfair to me or the discussion we had earlier.

Archetypes are varied among the males, and stale among the females, that was my thread topic and most of what I had to say, I can tell you that red's don't post in rude threads where the OP **** talks about the subject, the least you can do me is due diligence.

I mean Riots done better by what I'd said, Shyvana being the best example in my mind of what I could at the very least hope for in style (and asked for) from Riot on challenging the mold, or the current archetypes, and exploiting some of what there is to be had in the fantasy genre.

And if you did glaze over my arguments, its to your loss, I made sound arguments and if you discounted them as angry ravings you're only a third right, the 2/3s you missed were pathological flaws in riots female design


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DoctorMcPain

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I don't really care how scantily clad a female champion looks like, as much as how fun she is to play. What concerns me about Sejuani is most certainly the latter.


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Cake Mage

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

We need more lumberjills!


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DeliriousSoul

Senior Member

01-13-2012

I must disagree, not all the female in lol share the same body, we got "ugly" karma (I love playing her, but her dress is just too much for a battlefield), small tristana (and poppy), Irelia (that looks like an asian female), Lux (that has a "teenage" body figure) and Riven (she doesnt have BIG ****, she has a strong body for her condition of "exiled warrior") or Leona (that looks like a old experienced paladin). They sure does show meat (That is what mens like, and even womans (like me) prefer the female figures like that)
Im a woman and I LOVE they artstyle in LoL, i would love to have a fancy sexy baddass male (graves is ugly, but i find Garen and Talon very hot ! ahahah) What LoL need is a really sexy male that can be paired with all the hot chicks in lol, and supports... But the female desing is just perfect!


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DucktickIer

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Honestly I've never cared about a characters physique too much at all. In fact, I'm very anime based and I enjoy a world of impossibly skinny people wielding 12 foot long swords all the time. I actually like the slender, "quick" look that a lot of these characters have and most of them are males. It just doesn't make sense in a world of magic to have muscles to pick up something 50-100 pounds heavier when you could just say that you have trained for hundreds of years, special training, or have magic muscles. Thing just will NEVER scale well so you might as well go for the most aesethically pleasing route.
Obviously you know this already. I think the only thing I can really see is if Sejuani was like an Olympic athlete's physique or like Viashino said on the front page, like a Street Fighter character.


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DeliriousSoul

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
The thing about feminists is, they don't understand women.

Mark my words- if they made a fat chick champ like Gragas, women wouldn't play it. You would be doing fat chicks no favors, they would all still play Lux and Morg.

Moreover, if fat-chick jokes were made in the forums like fat-guy jokes are made about Gragas, it would lead to a nuclear holocaust of flames on the forums.
Im a woman and IM SO AGREE WITH YOU, but i will always support the idea of a sexy badass male champ (graves is ugly) with Galios voice (best voice ever)

Girls have a tendency to play champs that are cute or sexy females, even I do. I play karma because i like her gamestyle, but I think she really needs to do something with that hair/dress.. Anyway the holocaust thing is so true and funny ahahaha


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DucktickIer

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
I've actually said this quite a bit. A lot of people don't understand why Mario looks the way he does and that often times overexaggeration is needed to make a character stand out and identifiable. I think Sejuani is awesome looking and her stance doesn't make her look frail to me a bit.


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Crosbie

Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
The thing about feminists is, they don't understand women.

Mark my words- if they made a fat chick champ like Gragas, women wouldn't play it. You would be doing fat chicks no favors, they would all still play Lux and Morg.

Moreover, if fat-chick jokes were made in the forums like fat-guy jokes are made about Gragas, it would lead to a nuclear holocaust of flames on the forums.
Not to mention the class hypocricy of them complaining about the champion being 'derogatory to women everywhere!'


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DireRaven

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Senior Member

01-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
The thing about feminists is, they don't understand women.

Mark my words- if they made a fat chick champ like Gragas, women wouldn't play it. You would be doing fat chicks no favors, they would all still play Lux and Morg.

Moreover, if fat-chick jokes were made in the forums like fat-guy jokes are made about Gragas, it would lead to a nuclear holocaust of flames on the forums.
Anyone who wants equality for women is a feminist.

Just throwing that out there.


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deathcoilfeardot

Senior Member

01-13-2012

1) A fat female character wouldn't be derided as derogatory to the female ***. I suspect the opposite would happen. Instead, I think lots of people would ridicule the character for being fat.

2) No one plays Gragas already because no one likes fat people. Has nothing to do with him being male. Our culture (US culture, and to a similar degree other Western cultures) has a very strong fat-hating meme, as any larger person will tell you.